Albino Ball Python Died!!

The reason I’m posting this here is because I’m not 100% sure what direction this post is going to take and while I could see it taking a turn that may warrant it’s placement here that may not be the case after the facts are in. My basic objective of this post is to find out if the situation I’m about to outline is an isolated occurrence or if it has happened to others as well. If in fact this is an isolated occurrence then I feel it should be handled in a totally different non-public manner, however if others have had the same thing or something similar happen then I feel it should be publicly addressed. Below is the outline of events:

8/02 My partner purchased an Albino ball python at the Daytona Show. This snake was born the same month of the show, something not mentioned at the time and only recently brought to my attention.

8/05 The animal was place in my care, was feeding fair and in good physical condition.
Over the next six weeks this snake fed five times with no troubles and seemed very healthy.

10/02 The animal was fed and two days later ended up regurgitating her meal between nine and eleven pm. Less then twelve hours later the animal was dead.

At this point, within 6 hours of her death she was placed in the refrigerator as it was a Sunday and nothing could be done until the following day. She was then taken to the UofA where a necropsy was done. I will post that report within the next few days however it was found that the cause of death was chronic Gout. Keep in mind that was the only health issue, there were no protozoa found of any kind.

Upon further research I’ve found that this can be either genetic or something caused by an extended period of dehydration. Per the breeder this animal was born in August and based on this information there is no possible way the time frame of two months would have allowed the animal to be dehydrated for a long enough period of time that it’s uric acid or uric salt levels could have reached a point to cause it’s death from gout as opposed to dehydration. With that in mind the conclusion is that this overproduction of uric acid and salts may be the result of a genetically inherited defect.

Now this is information that I’ve sat on for some time only because I felt that it’s an extremely serious matter and I understand fully the implications of the above information. However, upon speaking with another breeder we had been talking about our ball pythons. I mentioned that I had suffered the loss and was shocked, as I hadn’t had an animal unexpectedly die in a very long time. He proceeded to tell me about a ball python he purchased from the same breeder that had died and he too was shocked, as he hadn’t lost a snake in a very long time either.

This information got me thinking that there may be others that have suffered the same loss and would leave one of only a few options.

1) It’s an odd occurrence however nothing more then chance.
2) There happened to be a birth defect that caused the isolated issues in these two animals.
3) There is a genetic issue that needs to be addressed.

The other breeder opted not to look further into the cause of death due to the cost of the animal and the cost of the necropsy. For myself, I produced over 500 eggs this year and to the best of my knowledge not on of those babies has died. Because of this I felt it odd that this breeder has had two well feeding snakes (As hardy as ball pythons) just up and die over the course of a couple of days without any warning.

If you’ve had a snake die in a similar manner/situation I would very much like to hear about it. As I said this post is meant to bring out the facts and go from there if there is in fact anything else that needs to be addressed. If there isn’t I would like to see this moved to another forum or deleted. Until that time I will keep the name of this breeder to myself, as I don’t feel there is enough information to conclude anything and I’m not sure if anything other then the person’s willingness to address this issue has come into question.

I ask that you please keep this thread on topic and if you feel the need to address other issues please either start a new thread or email me. I would like to keep this free of insinuations, insults, threats and allegations. I’m doing nothing more then looking for facts and have done my best to state facts as opposed to what I think. In the cases I have stated what my thoughts were I’ve tried to look at them with an open mind and think about the options as opposed to what I think. I’m also not sure what if anything is due to me, as the animal did not die of a car issue but a genetic one. I don’t have any issue with loosing the money I have. I do however have an issue with getting such a high dollar snake so quickly out of the egg and with the breeders seeming unwillingness to work with me. I also have an issue with other people buying animals the may be dying from the same thing if in fact that turns out to be a valid concern

I will post a photo of the snake taken less then 5 days before it’s death. For reference the piece of wood next to the snake is 5.5 inches long. The reason for this photo is two fold. I think it shows the state of the snake and may also help people who may have had the same thing happen decide if it looks to be from the same line as this albino is fairly distinct looking.

Thanks you for taking the time to read this,
Adam Block

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Rob

Sorry for the loss of a beautiful young snake. I wanted to contribute some other onfo about gout. First the dehydration thought, in a young snake, it has been found that it does not take extended periods of time without fluid, the combination of stress and lack for hydration over a few days can cause gout to develop, not be noticed and the animal die within a few months, even if well cared for during those few months.

Many of the earlier imported pythons from New Guinea and Indonesia died within two months of arrival, although they were very well cared for after arrival. Pathology showed they died of gout that was caused due to lack of hydration during shipping. This happened many times over, so the time factor for yours expiring could have been something that happened prior to you receiving her.

Also, inbreeding has resulted in many reptiles being unable to clear the uric acids from their blood, and this would affect most the reptiles in the same clutches. Another factor that can cause it is too low temperature causing the initial build up, even if kept at correct temperature later, the reptile can and many did die weeks later from experiencing it at a young age as the damage was already done.

I seriously doubt it is anything you did, the time factor of death between 6-8 weeks after you got it from gout would indicate it was a problem of too young a snake being exposed to stress and most likely lack of hydration/proper temps during the trip to and at the show. Also since it was an albino there is a good chance there was inbreeding along its genetic line that could have been a contributing factor.

Trying to locate others that may have purchased snakes from the same clutch or even breeder could tell you if they had ball python die under like circumstances, but unless you knew the conditions or time factor in the arrival at the show, it would very hard to tell if genetic or enviromental. Reptiles that are dehydrated can bounce right back and appear fine within hours, but you can not tell the internal, slow lurking damage that may appear weeks later it caused.

You may have some cause with the breeder if your Vet or the lab that did the pathology can state their est time factor as to the onset of the problem.

Cheri, that was an excellent post and helped educate me to some extent as what the cause of death may have been.

What is very hard to deal with is the fact that I've been keeping snakes for 23 years and have a good understanding of their care needs. This holds just as true in all the snakes I keep but even more so in a snake that just cost $2500.

Looking over the time frame I hadn't even thought about the fact that the snake was born and within 5-7 days was transported cross Country to Daytona and then of course kept at the show in less then perfect conditions.

I would also assume through the trip and well at the show the snake was kept without water. Do you feel the snake may have been taken there and sold at too young of an age?

Adam Block

This is interesting in it's own right.

How many people provide water for their animals over a show weekend? I found that my hatchling corn snakes were showing signs of distress in two days being without water. And I provided water on the way to the show and then on the way back home. I would keep water dishes in the deli cups for the trip to the show, remove them on Saturday morning, then replace them at breakdown on Sunday evening.

After seeing signs of minor dehydration distress in them by late Sunday afternoon, I now keep water dishes in the deli cups with the animals until they are sold at the show.

Let's look at the time frame we have to deal with. We begin packing up for the Daytona Beach show on Wednesday and finish up late on Thursday. Friday we are driving to the show for setup. The show runs thru Saturday and Sunday, and we leave immediately after the show to come on back home. We are only 4.5 hours from Daytona Beach, but even so, if we did not provide drinking water for the baby snakes, the first ones packed up would be without water from Wednesday until, at the earliest, late Sunday night. More likely it would be early Monday before we would get around to putting them up and offering them a drink. So that could be as long as 5 days without a drink in a worst case scenario.

What is this time frame like for someone coming from a much longer distance? Can 5+ days without water cause this sort of problem for a baby ball python?

And I guess what this thread is heading towards: If such is the case, is the seller negligent in selling an animal subjected to this stress and are they liable for the lethal results?

Your partner bought a $2500 snake and didn't even ask when it was born? Did the person you bought the snake from breed it? What's there take on the situation?

Now Adam.... Come on, man.... at least, let's be fair??.... Why is it, that when ANYTHING goes wrong, TWO MONTHS down the road, it ALWAYS becomes the dealer's fault???.... How do YOU know that his babies weren't given water while at the show??.... From what I understand, even the breeder only had the snake for about a week???.... YOU had it for TWO MONTHS!!.... If I had a snake worth $2500, you're damned right I'd have it hydrated!.... This is SO unfair to the breeder of this unfortunate animal (or two).... but to insinuate that he has some sort of plague inherent in his "line", is totally uncalled for!.... All you know is that the snake died from gout (and that's if the vet is correct!, all I know is that I've seen a lot more animals die while in the vet's care, than in the breeder's)....
Now, if this all pans out to be true, that (somehow) you can actually PROVE that there is a defect in his line.... then, yes, he's probably going to owe a lot of people a lot of money.... but, in the meantime.... don't even HINT that he has a problem.... you should have put this on the GBD, and just asked a simple medical question concerning gout and if it could be related to ANY breeder.... remember.... YOU had that snake for two months, he had it for a week.... you want to calculate the odds of who's at fault here??

....Neil

The snake was produced by the person it was purchased from. The reason that it's date of birth didn't come into play was because other animals were purchased at the same time and those dates were of higher concern then the albino ball. He also gave me the impression that he hadn't had any other Albinos at the time of the show and to some extentled me to believe he rushed them there so he would have some to offer.

My post is only there to show facts as I see them and as they happend. I place no fault in that post and I ask for nothing other then peoples thoughts on the topic at hand. I'm asking a question and nothing more. For that matter I'm keeping all the personal emotion I have in this issue out of the thread as best I can as I don't feel it has anything to do with the topic. Where I have stated my thoughts I've laid them out in a maner of options and not one choice.

To answer your question Chad, the breeder is basicly unwilling to do a thing about the matter. He staits he knows his animals and it's not possible that it died from anything due to his care, a birth defect or genetic issue. He also refuses to believe the animal would have died no matter who's care it was in.

There are people out there smarter then myself with more information on how Gout effects reptiles. If you have input please feel free to contribute as I'm not in any way the authority on the matter.

Adam Block

Adam, a question about the animals that produced your baby...was it an albXalb?...outcrossed hets?...just wondering; with the price of albino balls it would seem people may be breeding any het babies either to each other or back to the parents, concentrating any suspected bad traits right on down the line, instead of taking time to diversify the line thru outcrossing, altho if (big if) this particular line of albino did have some genetic "flaws" outbreeding really wouldn't help...definitely no expert on genetics or ball python morphs, just curious....Sorry to hear about it, man...chris

Well, Adam.... OK.... Is Gout contageous??.... Could your snake POSSIBLY have contracted it from other snakes at the show??
The way you worded your "question", there leaves NO DOUBT your objective.... a blind man could pick it right up.... There is NO WAY you can prove the dealer is at fault in this??.... IF this thread DOES start to get a lot of responses, you're, eventually, going to HAVE TO tell us his name??.... If not, this should have been in the GBD.... sorry, buddy.... but, I'm siding with the dealer on this one (so far)....

....Neil

Unfortunately, we have to be self regulating in the age that young reptiles should be sold. IMO considering that ball python hatchling should be keep to miminal stress the first few months of life and a good eating pattern established, these being only days old, brought across country, then exposed to show conditions, I would have been surprised if they did thrive, even in the best of hands. It has nothing to do with the care they received after bought

In the 1980's many were brought in from Africa, Indonesia and other locations and suffered this exact problem. Understand, these were not wild caught young, the mothers were caught gravid and the eggs hatch in captivity, then shipped to the US. These were a few weeks old and in transit sometimes less than 2 days. They survived the trip fine, but the majority did die of gout within the first two months. They went to Universities and Zoo's, to people knowledgable of the care and maintainance of them. The best care in the world could not undo what already had been done to them. Fortunately, those places did have pathology done and it is documented that this was the cause of death, too young from many locations, to many locations and many lines. Its enviromental, even if a short term of time, certainly not the fault of the owners they went to.

Rich, I think, someone transporting and selling hatchling that young, should be aware of this, it was very common knowledge to the industry that were bringing these in during the 80's when the big market for them developed.

But also, since there are no regulations regarding the age reptiles can be sold at, we as owners need to avoid purchasing them that young, even if we are experienced in their care.

There is no way around the fact that the stress of too young, transit, show setups(lack of proper heat, water and the additonal stress of handling and traffic) is not in their best interest and MANY pathology from past like situations, verified that the young died of gout due to those factors, in the same time period that Adam's did in with the same diagnoses.

Is the dealer liable? Legal no, ethically... no doubt

Should others be warned that a dealer/breeder sells young under these conditions or one you buy may have been under those conditions in the past and likely to have the same result? I sure would want to know before I spent $2500, I think anyone would.

The dealer/breeder created the situation that caused the death and loss, at minimum he should be informed that this happened and the studies that back it so he can avoid it in the future and see what he has to say. If this was the cause, ones he brought back from the show would be suffering the same fate and he may be unaware that this is a documented problem, unaware that this is the cause since it happens several weeks AFTER the cause and to animals that seem to be thriving.

I would be interested in knowing if these babies came from a well known breeder,as the ones I saw at the Daytona show were from breeders that are very knowledgable and most on their own sites advise against the sort of things this baby was exposed to in the packing, transite and selling at that young of age.

Neil: Gout is not contagious, it is either genetic or damage caused by enviroment, does not show up physical immediately, usually taking several weeks to show physical signs and if left untreated is fatal. The probability that Adam did anything to cause this is almost zero in the time factor involved.