Cindy Chicvara -aka- Dragonlady58 - take a pass!

Jim,

Maybe I'm not reading it right but here is what you just posted:

No one may buy, sell or possess for sale alligator snapping turtles, box turtles, Barbour’s map turtles, river cooters, loggerhead musk turtles, Escambia River map turtles, diamondback terrapins or parts thereof.

It seems that the text clearly states that you are not supposed to "buy, sell, or possess for sale". Mi interpretation is that the only pair that you are allowed to have is that one you collected yourself or was given to you.

Regards.

Chuck, I know you are a good-guy... we have done business in the past and it was a real pleasure! I enjoyed every aspect of the transaction, especially the communication, and hope we can do business again in the future.

But, had the transaction gone sour for any reason and you demanded a refund for whatever the reason, I would very simply go to PayPal and issue it immediately... and be done with it. As breeders, our time and energy is just too valuable to waste on lousy customers.

But here's what I stated as my interpretation:

.... it (the statute) certainly allows you to catch them, accept them as gifts, etc

And here's what you posted as your interpretation:

Maybe I'm not reading it right ...... Mi interpretation is that the only pair that you are allowed to have is that one you collected yourself or was given to you.

I believe that your interpretation and mine are inter-changeable. Do you disagree? I then went on to render an opinion as to where this might be on the radar down here, as I do live here and do interact with the Florida Game Commission, and have done so specifically with an Inspector on my property with regard to box turtles. I applaud Florida for not being as inflexible as some northern states (to include PA), where I speak with authority as I have lived and dealt reptiles in northern states. My opinion is that Florida has written the laws so as to be able to prosecute what they would interpret as exploitation of native fauna, but not to the point of being anal about it. I was also pointing out an inaccuracy made in another post that cited the law. Got it now?

Jim,

Got it! And you are right.

Regards.

No problem ! I do confess to being more curious as to the exact status of vending box turtles from PA location, since it was raised. Not only do the laws vary enormously from state to state, but so does their enforcement, or better put, where they place emphasis on enforcement. We have seen many threads here in the BOI where issues concerning ignorance to the law arise which were not the intent of the thread starter, or a contributor. Classic examples have been the shipping of venemous reptiles, snakes via USPS and other carriers, etc. It is no secret that USF&W monitors many animal classified and forum sites, and have made significant busts based on info gathered therein. Changing times continuously, for sure, for I can remember as a kid catching box turtles in great quantity in MD, and having friends ship me indigo snakes from Florida (got my first in 1969). Getting back to topic, it seems that a transacton invloving the purchase and shipping of two box turtles from PA to FL may have greater problems than the timeliness of payment, of shipping, and a bit of name-calling ! I no longer have any Indigos either.

So I did some research on my self-imposed lunch break. Here's a quote from the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission, the regulatory agency governing PA wildlife:

Current regulations: Currently, regulations for box turtles and all reptiles and amphibians not listed as endangered, threatened or candidate in Pennsylvania are as follows: there is a daily and maximum possession limit of two box turtles. It is unlawful to sell, offer for sale, import or export for consideration, trade or barter, or purchase an amphibian or reptile, whether dead or alive, in whole or in parts, including eggs or any lifestage (except for common snapping turtles) that was taken, caught or killed in this Commonwealth.

Here is a link to the entire page about box turtles: http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Fish_Boat/qbox.htm

To the credit of PA, that page goes to some length to say that they are OK with curious kids catching and keeping box turtles. They also mention concern about the export of box turtles from their state, and their status as a CITES II animal. Far more research could be done regarding any possible fine print with regard to permit exceptions, proof of acquisition, etc. The above quote would seem to allow box turtles from outside the state of PA to be imported, although there seems to be ambiguity in saying that you cannot "import .... reptiles ..... taken caught or killed in this Commonwealth". It is certainly something for PA folks to be concerned about, and this Florida person has allowed his curiosity to take him away from his own work for today.

The two box turtles in question were both purchased from a private collector in South Carolina several years back. Any animal I have in my possession has a receipt or some form of documentation of its collection origin to accompany it. Copies of those documents are available to any customer that would ask for it or require it. The records are also available for review to the FGW or any other agency that might wish to review them.

As far as Cindy is concerned.....

I offered her a refund twice nicely and she demanded a refund twice rudely.

When she can ask for a refund without all the unneeded insults and rudeness I'll cooperate with her. If she cant, and it seems she wont, she can go about filing with PayPal to request the refund and I'll comply with them.

This isn't about torturing Cindy for her refund. I am refusing my help, which she really doesn't need to begin with, in light of her rudeness and inability to apologize sincerely for the way she treated me. Its that simple.

I respect each and everyone of your opinions. I value them, truly I do. I wouldn't be here as a member, minding my P's and Q's, changing my tone drastically from what it once was, if I didn't value them. But if any of you had said the same thing to me in an email that Cindy did...I would be doing the same thing to you right now. If that serves as a warning for any particular individual to steer clear of me, then its an admission to me that that person would do the same as Cindy under similar situation. In that case..I did myself a great service.

Sorry guys but thats all I have to add to this thread I started. Certainly your all welcome to add your thoughts to it, and being familiar with BOI threads....I'll visit back when it takes a spin, a month from now, to discuss the price of pizza in Peoria.

Originally Posted by critical bill

When she can ask for a refund without all the unneeded insults and rudeness I'll cooperate with her. If she cant, and it seems she wont, she can go about filing with PayPal to request the refund and I'll comply with them.

. Certainly your all welcome to add your thoughts to it, and being familiar with BOI threads....I'll visit back when it takes a spin, a month from now, to discuss the price of pizza in Peoria.

I really do think courteous service can be offered despite an anxious customer and certainly how you respond says something about you.

I can attest that when there is conflict, if one person is soothing and problem solving, the other person likely will de escalate, in fact that concept is taught and encouraged in many professional settings;
many times those who complain are asking for validation of their feelings and if this is received the entire tone of the exchange instantly improves.

It costs nothing and helps everyone when one acts in a manner that will recognize the feelings of the other person and then courteously take steps to improve the situation.

I still do not understand why, when UPS was unable or unwilling to come do a pick up at your business, the package was not simply taken to a UPS drop off location on 12/27 and sent, as promised, to the customer? It is only due to your unwillingness to ship as promised that the customer became irate. Is driving 1 to 11 miles not worth making your buyer satisfied?


[font=Arial]

THE UPS STORE (1.3 miles)
413 ROUTE 940
MOUNT POCONO, PA 18344
570-839-8010

AUTHORIZED SHIPPING OUTLET (1.0 miles)
NORTHEAST PACK AND SHIP CENTER
RT 940 MT POCONO PLZ
MOUNT POCONO, PA 18344
570-895-1000



UPS CUSTOMER CENTER (11.5 miles)
STAFFED LOCATION
2129 ROCKDALE LANE
STROUDSBURG, PA 18360
800-742-5877

I am from Florida as well. I had a box turtle on the auction on Reptile-auction a month or so back. I know you remember that Gulf coast box turtle I had Chuck. I was not aware of the law here on box turtles. During the auction someone made a comment on the Q and A's on that auction. I did the research and found the same info posted here. I stopped the auction at that point, and the turtle was given away. I no longer trade or buy box turtles at all, due to the laws in place here in the state of Florida.
As for Chuck, I have known you for a while, and we have fought many scammers. I also respect you and your thoughts, but why in the world would you let someone like this hurt your reputation? It is just not worth it! I realize she got smart with you, but she is not worth all of this effort. I have had this type in the trade, they try to pressure you into instant pudding. But if it cannot be shipped for whatever reason, than I still try to make them happy. IMO it is not worth the negative feedback. I also use my phone, they seem to respond to an actual voice better than an email, should a problem arise. I also do not pull funds from Paypal until the shipment has arrived and the customer is happy. As the old saying goes (the customer is always right) well maybe not, but they can sure hurt you by word of mouth. They can also help the same way. It is real easy to send the funds back. I have been fortunate in that I have not had to do this but once. I had a white oak rat escape from a cage after someone won the bid. I called the bidder and returned the funds. I did not find it for a month. I called the bidder back and sold it to them then, with no harm done. Chuck the point I am trying to make is, just hit the button and return the funds. It is hard to deal with people like this, but you just cannot let them get to you. Causing her to wait on the return will hurt you more than her. This is your business, and you are the seller. She will buy from someone else and move on. But she can hurt you more than you may realize. Just remember this, when you look at someone’s feedback, what is the first thing you look at? It is the negative feedback, not the positive. Regardless of the positive, you will look at the negative first.
It helps to be more like a duck, and just let that water run off your back instead of letting it soak in. I am not saying do not stand up for yourself, but more like keeping your thoughts towards future trades, and not letting people like this get to you, they just are not worth it. Chuck, this is just my opinion. Do as you wish, because it is 100% totally up to you.