bad check Laura Casey / DragonLady5

Unfortunately I'm compelled to make my first BOI post.


(blurred out sensitive info - home address, account/routing number, driver's license number and phone number written on the check)

Back in December 2010 I made a post looking for wholesale out-of-the-egg baby cornsnake buyers. I knew I would have very little time July - December and unless someone was willing to buy them all, out of the egg, I was not going to breed. As it was there was a lot of interest and I was happy - I wasn't selling for a lot but it'd be enough to cover food and I'd get to test a few pairs I was curious about.

The add is here:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=217398

I ended up going with Laura Casey / DragonLady5 because she offered to drive to my house to get the snakes.

We agreed on a contract which I'll cut/paste here - I can provide screenshots if need be

Contract:

Ophidile/Adie Victor will sell Laura Casey hatchling cornsnakes for a flat fee of $6 each. Hatchlings will be "out-of-the-egg", guaranteed live, free from deformity, and without obvious health problems. In the event that a hatchling is found to have an inherent defect, proof in the form of a photo or physical evidence must be provided in which case the hatchling will be replaced by October 2011 or refunded. Preference will be for replacing rather than refunding. Replacement will be with another cornsnake hatchling of any morph or gender. Replacements and refunds will not exceed 10% of the total transferred.
An "inherent defect" is any gross deformity or health issue that is present before the hatchling changes hands. Examples would include kinks and death within two months of transferring not attributable to environmental causes. It does not include injury or death from environmental causes after the snakes have changed hands or failure to eat, unless an underlying deformity is suspected. Concerns must be reported within two months of receiving the snake.
In the event that Laura Casey is unable to collect snakes within two weeks of their hatching, Ophidile/Adie Victor may seek another buyer. Payment will cash, exchanged at the time when hatchlings are picked up.

I agree to the above terms and conditions: Adie Victor, 01/08/2011
I agree to the above terms and conditions: Laura Casey, 01/08/2011

PLEASE NOTE I SPECIFIED CASH PAYMENT.
However, it's also worth noting that I did not bring up the fact that payment was to be cash again - I figured that was settled.

Time passed and I let her know as pairs hooked up, as eggs were laid, and then when babies started pipping. I gave her a running tally on how many eggs there were. I did feed several batches as she wanted to make one trip and all the clutches did not hatch at once. I also offered to buy deli cups for transferring them as I'd run out (otherwise I would have just thrown it up) if she would pay for the cups at-cost ($0.25c each) but she declined.

For school I've ended up having to go out of town for two months from July 1st to the end of August. My fiance is kindly taking care of my snakes, but I wanted to get as much as possible wrapped up before I left. So even though some snakes were still pipping I had to finish this exchange. I had been careful to let her know exactly how many were available and the cost because I was expecting she needed to know how much cash to bring.

June 28 Mrs. Casey drove down to pick up the babies.

26 from candy x gil (het butter snow mot x butter het anery mot).
23 from lady bub x lavender male (snow x lavender het snow)
19 from ifrit x diablo (creamsicle het stripe x creamsicle het stripe)

68 total = $408

There were also two really nice yearling snow mots, either het or homozygous for butter, that I had been holding on to for myself but decided I needed to downsize as much as possible for my fiance's sake. I also sold these to Mrs. Casey for $30, for a total of $438

There were also 14 sunkissed eggs still in the incubator, three of which were pipping, that I threw in for free. Of note, this clutch has a high mortality rate and I expected maybe half of those to actually hatch. Also, two of the cream stripes had club tails and two of the babies from candy's clutch were runty, so I hoped the pips would make up for them. I pointed all this out before/during pickup too.

Mrs. Casey looked the babies over and transferred them to her own containers. Time came for payment - to my chagrin she pulled out a checkbook.

It's against my policy to accept personal checks from anyone who I do not see regularly and have not verified to have a good record of doing such. I'd checked the BOI for her name previously and hadn't found anything good or bad. But, to be fair I hadn't told her I don't accept personal checks and I hadn't reiterated that payment was to be cash in over half a year.

I was in a tight spot, leaving town for two months in two days. Mrs. Casey had driven 2 hours to pick up these babies. When I balked, she said she didn't have cash on her, that it was a very old account, and was willing to give me her DL to make a copy of.

I had to hope I could trust her.

I deposited the check that day and looked in a week later, funds were still there. I decided to wait till the end of the month and apologize for giving her a hard time if things were still clear.
Unfortunately they were not.



As you can see, the check actually bounced July 7th, but I did not notice until yesterday. I received no word from Mrs. Casey in the interim. My fiance tells me there is a letter at home from the bank saying the reason the check bounced was nonsuficient funds, but I don't have proof of that for you on hand at this time.

Yesterday I sent an email, this is the exchange:

Ophidile to Laura
show details 8:20 PM (21 hours ago)

Hello.


I am very unhappy to see the check you wrote me has bounced.

I would like you to paypal me $438 or send me a postal money order (with a tracking number) for that amount.

I will be taking this to the BOI but am giving you a day to respond and for me to cool off.


Michael Casey to me
show details 8:50 PM (21 hours ago)

I love banks. All they are good for is taking your money. Let me figure out how to get this to work, I will try PayPal, else a check from Wells Fargo (not personal). I will let you know.
Sorry,
M.Casey


Ophidile to Michael
show details 8:52 PM (21 hours ago)

Thanks for the quick response.

The check actually bounced on the 7th but I've been out of town and only just received the notice.

I hope this can be worked out quickly.


Adie

That's the summary at this time. I am hoping it was an unintentional accident and will be made right promptly. This is exactly the situation I was trying to avoid with this deal; being distracted during an intense rotation. However, hopefully they will prove it as a mistake and get the funds to me soon.

BOI stuff: I have about 39 emails total between us, I can post more if necessary but in the interest of keeping this readable and concise I haven't. I also have a scan of their driver's license but am trying to avoid posting sensitive info at this time. The license matches the name but not the address on the check. I recognized this but as this is true of my own checks and DL I figured there were enough benign explanations that it was not an issue.

Also, I know sometimes folks can be eager, with a lot of discussion and questions; I am very busy right now and do not have a lot of personal internet access. I will answer but it might take time.

I will be sending a link to this thread to the Caseys immediately after posting.

That sucks.
I got a bad check before. Not only did it bounce but my bank hit me with a $30 fee for depositing a bad check. I never heard back from the idiot and never got my money back. Thankfully I hadn't shipped.
I hope you get your money back for this.
This is exactly why I refuse to take checks (and a lot of other people too).

Be cautious with paypal if she sends a payment. I have had several e-checks from paypal bounce.

I would demand an instant payment if she uses paypal.

Good luck.

Be cautious taking paypal period. Their known not protecting anyone now a days.

Accept Cash or USPS money order only only safest means of payment IMO.

Thanks for the responses. Fortunately there were no fees and I was not relying on the check to maintain a positive balance.

I know paypal can be disputed within 45 days, and can also act like a "check" in that it can turn out to have nonsufficient funds - are there risks beyond that?

The problem is I will not be home until the end of August so an electronic payment would be easier.

Originally Posted by ophidile

Thanks for the responses. Fortunately there were no fees and I was not relying on the check to maintain a positive balance.

I know paypal can be disputed within 45 days, and can also act like a "check" in that it can turn out to have nonsufficient funds - are there risks beyond that?

The problem is I will not be home until the end of August so an electronic payment would be easier.

Yea the buyer/sender can file a claim for any reason and get their money back.
Buyers Remorse Seems to be in the favor of the Buyer in paypals eyes since paypal dont review evidence very well.

Keep the check and call daily to see when funds are available, if they say funds are, drive to their bank and cash it... I had to do this once and it wasnt fun.

I had someone recently try and give me a personal check, and while it wasn't for quite this amount, it was for a couple of hundred dollars. I didn't feel comfortable taking one from someone I had only exchanged a few e-mails and phone calls with, even though she tried to assure me she was a teacher and in the local system if I needed to track her down, as well as let me copy her DL. I politely offered to have her follow me to a nearby ATM. Without hesitation she agreed, and I took cash instead. I would suggest doing that from now on. Nearly everyone has a debit card, and if they do and agree, then the money is there. If they give you a hard time, it may be safe to say they just don't have the cash, and you might want to avoid taking a check from them. I understand not EVERYONE has a debit card, but the majority of people do. So in general I think it would work. Good luck in getting this sorted out!

Make your statutory written request, see below. A bad check is a crime, nail her if you don't get paid soon.


Criminal Illinois Penalties: Up to $500 fine or up to one year in jail, or both. Civil Illinois Penalties: Treble amount of check but not less than $100 nor more than $500 plus attorney's fees and court costs.

Section 3-104(2)(b) of the UCC, defines a check as "a draft drawn on a bank and payable on demand." A postdated check, since it is not payable on demand, does not satisfy this demand.
Consequently, it has generally been held by most states that the giving of a post-dated check does not constitute a present fraud nor is it within the scope of the bad check laws.

In most cases, NSF checks are not considered under the bad check law if they are used to pay an antecedent debt. Therefore, if a debtor gives a debtor an NSF check to pay a note payment or to pay an invoice that is on account, the act generally does not fall within the bad check law. However, if the debtor provides a creditor with a NSF check for a COD order, then that act does fall within the bad check laws.

Bad checks, also known as NSF checks, bounced checks, rubber checks, insufficient checks, bogus checks, etc., can be a big problem for an individual or for any size company. There are both civil and criminal penalties for this unlawful act, although it is much more costly and difficult to prove a criminal case. Always consider your goal: to recover the money or punish the check writer?

Any person who issues a bad check in the state of Illinois because the drawer
does not have an account with the drawee, or because the drawer does not
have sufficient funds in his account may be liable, in addition to the amount of
the check, for the sum of $25.00, or for all costs and expenses, including attorney
fees, whichever is greater, plus interest. To be eligible for any costs and expenses
in excess of $25.00 in a non-litigated collection action against the issuer of a
bad check, a person undertaking such action must make a written demand by
certified mail, return receipt requested, delivered to the last known address
of the issuer of the bad check. The written demand must include a demand
for payment within thirty (30) days of the mailing of the demand and a notice
of liability for the costs and expenses. (810 ILCS 5/3-806)

Any person may pursue a cause of action against the issuer in the state of Illinois
of a bad check in small claims court or any other appropriate court. If the issuer
of a bad check fails to make payment within thirty (30) days following delivery
or acceptance by the addressee of a written demand by both certified mail and
by first class mail to his last known address, or attempted delivery thereof and
the demand by certified mail is returned to the sender marked "refused" or
"unclaimed", he may be liable, in addition to the amount of the bad check,
damages of treble the amount so owing, but in no case less than $100 nor more
than $1,500, plus attorney fees and costs. (720 ILCS 5/17-1a)

(810 ILCS 5/3‑806) (from Ch. 26, par. 3‑806)
Sec. 3‑806. Any person who issues a check or
other draft that is not honored upon presentment
because the drawer does not have an account with
the drawee, or because the drawer does not have
sufficient funds in his account, or because the
drawer does not have sufficient credit with the
drawee, shall be liable in the amount of $25, or
for all costs and expenses, including reasonable
attorney's fees, incurred by any person in connection
with the collection of the amount for which the
check or other draft was written, whichever is greater,
and shall be liable for interest upon the amount of
the check or other draft at the rate provided in
subsection (1) of Section 4 of the Interest Act.
Costs and expenses shall include reasonable costs
and expenses incurred in the non-litigated collection
of the check or other draft.

A person who undertakes a non-litigated collection
against the person who issued a check or other draft that
is not honored upon presentment shall make a written
demand by certified mail, return receipt requested,
delivered to the last known address of that person in
order to become eligible for any costs and expenses in
excess of $25. The written demand shall demand payment
within 30 days of the mailing of the demand and shall
include notice of liability for the costs and expenses.

I took the above info from a commercial site having to do with finances. Disregard the part about the cost of criminal prosecutions, the state bears that cost, but you do have to complete the statutory notification and wait time.

I would nail anyone who did not make a check good in short order. There is no excuse for a lack of communication.

I would give her 30 days, if you don't receive payment, I'd contact an attorney. Maybe it was a legitimate mistake, but why would someone write a check that wouldn't cash? You'll know if you're going to get your money back if they keep in contact with you. Once they stop with the emails, they are like a speck of sand in the wind.

Good Luck to you, I hope you get your money!

Trey