IBD Allen belcher/Big daddys wholesale

Just came from that site as well, and grabbed a few examples of where they draw the lines. The allowable limits for rodent hairs is much higher in all cases, but here's some rodent feces limits:

Bay leaves: Average of 1 mg or more mammalian excreta per pound after processing

Cornmeal: Average of 1 or more rodent excreta fragment per 50 grams

Spices, Leafy, other than Bay Leaves: Average of 1 or more rodent excreta fragment per 50 grams

What you also find in other regulations Dan are graduated limits, such that below amount X, its OK for human consumption, between X and Y its OK for animals, and above Y we ship it overseas ... LOL, that's not what it says ... it is still fit to be used as fertilizer products etc. Reminder to others, we were chastized in the other thread for talking about IBD legalities, took it to this 2 day dormant topic about the same IBD and individual. They are still bitching in the other thread about not having much to talk about, it seems.

Jim the real problem with your take on Prosecuting someone for IBD is just that word -Prosecuting-. It is really really unlikely that a DA is going to file charges over IBD.. But in a Civil case I don't see it any harder to make a case against Allen than it would be for say. Making a Case for someone selling you a horse that they knew might have Equine Infectious Anemia (Coggins) or Hoof and Mouth in say a Steer. As the premise being was it More Likely Allen knew he may be selling you an infected snake than not. As has been pointed out he knows that there is a good chance his animals could be carrying IBD.

Now saying that other Wholesellers can't prove they don't have IBD ?? In a Civil case who cares if Allen brought it up to defend himself it would be on Him to prove that most wholesellers have animals that carry IBD.

It just has to be shown that he most likely knew.

Now I can't see a jury awarding millions in a case for icky ol snakes but being compensated for losses caused by others happens every day .. Randy

Originally Posted by Chameleon Company

I raised it only as a peripheral point to show that there are contaminants where the FDA recognizes that absolutes are not realistic, and that in the future, statutes and legal defenses will also recognize that IBD can exist where no party was negligent. Am certainly not saying that all IBD will be OK either .... far from it.

Jim,

There is a difference between selling an IBD infected snake, unbeknownst to either party, and continuing "business as usual" after it has been identified in your animal(s). Comparing livestock to dry goods is well...like comparing reptiles to cornmeal.

BTW, this is why I wash the top of the can before I open a soda...

Randy,
I used the word "prosecuted" as a shortcut to indicate civil litigation, as you or I can "prosecute" any cause or case. Here it is from www.yourdictionary.com: a. To initiate civil or criminal court action against. b. To seek to obtain or enforce by legal action. Sorry to confuse though. I don't quite see it as you do regarding the rest of it.

Jim O.,
I certainly understand the differences, but also explained my reasons for mentioning it. Its as relevent as tobacco, IMMHO Maybe in the years to come we'll see the serious prosecution of a civil case involving IBD contamination.

I'm a little more leary of cornmeal now myself. 8 fecal fragments per pound is acceptable. Don't know how big a "fragment" is.

BTW, this is why I wash the top of the can before I open a soda...

Jim,

No need to wash them. Just shake them really hard before opening. By doing so all the particles of dust and debris get loose.

Regards.

Originally Posted by Chameleon Company

I'm a little more leary of cornmeal now myself. 8 fecal fragments per pound is acceptable. Don't know how big a "fragment" is.

However big is too big. And I'll be sure to think about that the next time I see a corn muffin.

Originally Posted by The BoidSmith

Jim,

No need to wash them. Just shake them really hard before opening. By doing so all the particles of dust and debris get loose.

Is this based on personal experience or scientific study?

I'm on the boat with the guys with no real leagal knowledge but feeling free to add my 2 cents. My take on this is as..

1) Allen has not only been informed by e-mail but the test results were posted in a public forum.

2) Allen doesn't remember Ron but remembered everyone else he sold to. Even claiming no knowledge of the yellow biz card that was on his own table.

3) Said public forum has time and date stamps on the posts and Allen has responded since the vet report was posted.

4) Even during his deniability rants was given advice on the proper testing needed yet has either not had the proper testing or has refused to post results. Either of those is a boneheaded thing to do .

5) Allen has continued selling ( biz as usual ) since being notified.

6) In a post on the original thread Allen admits to " quarantining " animals together and I believe someone posted that boas were housed together after the vet report was posted.

7) A good bit of info concerning IBd was posted along with ways to do his own research in the thread after the vet report was posted.

8) Several e-mails have been posted from Allen since the IBD was brought to light along with bits of phone conversation folks had with Allen that when broke down each bit somewhat contradicts the other bits I.E. telling one person that he couldn't find a vet to do the test then telling another he contacted Fl University and hes cool to outright denying any possibility of IBD and everyone is just jealous.

The only thing I'm seeing as a prob in a court case is finding a jury that can be compassionate toward snakes. IMHO , too much info is here for anyone to see after Allen was notified of the infected animal to even consider claiming ignorance on his part. Even tho he may not not have known the litter or however many animals he received was infected, once notified that animals in his facility / facilities were infected that left the ball in his court. His responsibility to contact all of his suppliers and suspend selling animals until it was determined how far the infection had spread and taking appropriat" set " hobby wide but even an idiot can ask advice and figure out what needs to be done.

As for what Allen could do to with the current situation is not an easy task at all. Much easier for an average hobbyist or breeder but from the looks of it Allen isn't even trying to do anything but move animals. It was posted in the other thread that it looked as if he had more critters up for sale now since being notified of the infected animal. I've perused the KS ads and it does look as if the ads are more in number along with his lists being longer. Leaves one to consider if hes dumping or just bringing in more animals. Either way I don't see Allen handling this very well or at all , ethically or otherwise.

Either way I don't see Allen handling this very well or at all , ethically or otherwise.

Agreed !

It does look like Allen is dumping alot of snakes on KS. Very very cheap as I am sure to lure in the guys that haven't read this forum.

Jon

Originally Posted by Jon Mitchell

It does look like Allen is dumping alot of snakes on KS. Very very cheap as I am sure to lure in the guys that haven't read this forum.

Jon

It seems he thinks he is funny.I just looked at this ad and he says "you will be the talk of your friends if you buy this boy".Yea being told you just bought a possible IBD infected snake .He also states phone call will be taking over emails,yea so he can flow the garbage out of his mouth .Here is the ad i am talking about here.
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=456508