IBD Allen belcher/Big daddys wholesale

Isn't it interesting how all the ball breeders are getting rid of their breeders right now, during breeding season?

Oh wait, the HONEST ones are NOT selling possibly infected snakes.

What a lowlife.

Originally Posted by Chameleon Company

Here it is Lloyd. Dan or Jim O. or anyone else that wanted to carry on the discussion/debate about subjects that might be deemed as "NOT REAL" in the other Allen B. thread, give it a go here. Might help to cut-and-paste some things, as I am in the habit of forgeting everything that I learned yesterday. Anyone who comes here with a REAL issue will be advised to go to the other REAL thread ! Between the two, I believe we will have a choice to GET REAL !

OK, here's a cut and paste of my and Jim O's posts that litigation could be viable, the quote function does not seem to include the posts we quote in ours,but I guess you can cut and paste as well.....

Originally Posted by Lloyd Heilbrunn

The original poster might have trouble proving negligence due to the difficulty in diagnosis, but now that "the Defendant" is "on notice",the negligence case, in the event of a re-occurrence, is much easier.

And just because there has been no further discussion of legal action in the other thread does not mean it is not taking place,the first thing a good lawyer tells a client is to stop discussing the case with others....

Originally Posted by Lloyd Heilbrunn

Have there been unsuccessful civil cases concerning IBD? If so, how many? Have there been ANY civil cases brought where it could be proven the seller know or should have know that his collection was infected before he sold animals?? BTW, I've already mapped out the legal argument in the last post, he is on notice of a problem in his collection, it is arguably negligent to sell under these circumstances.

Because, unless there is appellate law that no cause of action exists under these circumstances, the number or lack of successful cases means shit.There were no successful tobacco litigation cases for decades.....

Originally Posted by Lloyd Heilbrunn

The parallel is that past lack of success does not impact future success unless it is controlling precedent.Especially if you don't even know if such cases were attempted.

Do you have an answer to any of my questions?

Originally Posted by Jim O

An IBD lawsuit succeeding is a matter of time, almost certainly. It happened with big tobacco when they said it never would and convincing 12 "peers" on a jury that Allen knew or should have known that he had a problem and was negligent in handling is written all over this board in a a thread in which he has participated. Proving causation may be the only hurdle, but defending one such lawsuit, successful or not, may put the likes of Allen out of the wholesale business depending on whether he is insured and how deep his pockets are. The third element, after negligence and causation, is damages. Those would perhaps never be collected but it would put others on notice.

The fact that there is no industry standard leaves it open for a jury of 12 to determine. It would, however, be easy to find multiple experts for plaintiff's case, and only a paid whore would testify that what Allen has done was proper. Most jurors can easily see through such an "expert", at least that has been my experience. I'm guessing that the "preponderance of the evidence" (that is more likely than not) would be that Allen knew he had animals that might be infected and failed to take proper action. If this then caused the death or destruction of other animals then that's the case. The fact that it has not ever happened, and may not happen with this individual, does not mean that it will not happen, and have a "successful" outcome. After all, juries have awarded billions of dollars over silicone breast implants and they probably never caused any of the diseases that are alleged.

Bottom line, Allen would appear to be at legal risk whether he wins or loses, should such a case ever arise. Would you want to be "the guy who got sued in that IBD case"?

It is obviously not practical for every boid to be tested. And this is an "industry" that is almost certain never to have "universal standards" for any number of reasons. But in a case like this, where there is a documented case in one of his animals, and knowing what can happen, he needs to do something more than "business as usual" irrespective of whether there are such standards. Moral and ethical standards would dictate that, even absent any financial risk.

Originally Posted by Lloyd Heilbrunn

Good analysis, and much more than I was willing to type out on my day off.

Wanna be my law partner???

Lloyd,
I am laughing with you here. We're both Florida, EST, and I am beat. I'll give it a look later tomorrow when some time opens up and see what gaps I can fill or comment on. In the meantime, Go Broncos !

Well, the spider I got from Allen before I read these threads has finally died. I had been giving him Baytril and a glucose injected mouse assit fed twice a week. Tonight was medicne night and when I picked him up, I noticed he was very bulged in the stomach area, which I thought was from him not deficating, and also in the chest region where it looked like his heart and lungs might be. I could see it was darker in the upper part of his body on his belly so I knew something was wrong. I gave him his baytril and was going to call the vet in the morning but he didn't fight me giving him the meds and he died about 10 mins after giving them to him. I put him in the freezer and will be sending him off for a necropsy tomorrow but I am sure the outcome will be the same as Airtrixx's, IBD.

Just wanted to let you guys know.

Jon

Don't freeze him put him in the fridge!!

Sorry to hear. Hope it did not contaminate any of your other snakes.

ravensgait: Don't freeze him put him in the fridge!!

AGREED!!! Hopefully you seen this before the animal froze. Freezing causes cell damage and can screw up the testing.

Jon, I am sorry to hear that you lost your Spyder,Please keep us updated on the results of the Necro.

Jon, that is terrible news, I am so sorry to hear that you lost him, expecially after all that you have done to keep him going.

Have you contacted Allen to inform him?

*especially....not eXpecially. Duh.