IBD Allen belcher/Big daddys wholesale

I did send him an email although I don't expect him to return it. He knew he sold me an animal that was at the very least sick if not contaiminated with IBD. Like I said in other emails, he never ate on his own nor deficated. All Allen wanted to do was have me send it back and him "try to get it going again". I have my fingers crossed that it didn't infect the rest of my collection.

I did read the posts and put him in the fridge before he was frozen. I have always heard to put them in the freezer but I took him out. I am having my vey send him out to a reptile pathologist so I can get the best results possible.

Thanks guys,

Jon

Lloyd,
The different levels of "proof being in the pudding" would start with actually walking into an attorney's office, spending more than the initial consultation fee, and maybe even putting down a retainer, and having that attorney get up to speed on the "facts" of the case. As you know, the attorney will raise many of the same issues and "yes buts" in analyzing the different thresholds in the case. Not saying the case can't be brought, and doesn't have a prayer of succeeding. At present, both with Allen and any other similar scenario, I do see it fraught with difficulties. I think that many of your "cut and paste" points were touched on yesterday prior to your post. But on a couple of points:

BTW, I've already mapped out the legal argument in the last post, he is on notice of a problem in his collection, it is arguably negligent to sell under these circumstances.

And arguably not, as he may be able to show that he has quarantined one group from another. I am aware that IBD has managed to spread despite the best of quarantine procedures in hobbyist collections. Point being that the spread of the disease does not necessarily indicate that the vendor did not take "reasonable" precautions, especially a wholesaler of cheap animals. This may be an area that health statutes eventually get a hold of, so that they can be summoned to test at a facility, at random or because of a complaint, and if they find IBD, they then have some legal authority to mandate a protocol. But as of right now, there are no state regs, and certainly not industry accepted ones, for low-end wholesalers. They all have snakes on top of snakes. Whatever steps a vendor may take, the door is still open that they have not eliminated the problem. Somewhere between doing nothing, and doing quite a lot, if the disease still moves out in a sale, a judge or jury will have to decide where the threshold of negligence was, and if it was crossed.

Since individual animal quarantine is still the recommended method, and this being primarily the obligation of the buyer, should it spread from a single animal into many owned by the buyer, the defense will argue that the buyer was negligent for the spread.

I agree that if it can be shown that a seller sold an animal that was known infected, or housed directly with a known infected, its a slam dunk. An easy case would also be the "dumping" of animals rather than attempting any quarantine and control once a vendor is "on-notice". Certainly, anything that can be shown to smack of a very "unethical" approach would support negligence. But there's a huge grey area out there for now, and even in the pretty air-tight of civil cases, 70-30 is often the best estimate you will get of prevailing. Add any smidgen of ambiguity, and down it comes. My opinion is that at this stage of the game, you'd be hard-pressed to get even a 50-50 assurance of prevailing.

Then there's the costs. You may prevail to some percent of your claim, and be unable to get any of your costs covered ..... aka spending $20-30K to win lesser judgement.

It is also possible that a well-heeled plaintiff could bleed a vendor-defendant into some degree of submission. That would only create a settlement, not a precedent.

I would agree that, in-time, things will happen. Just not tomorrow.

Jim, I don't disagree with too many of your pointed out difficulties including the comparative negligence. However, your original point was that there could not be a successful case brought because "I've never heard of a successful IBD case". That issue is irrelevant to the legal analysis unless the "unsuccessful IBD cases" are binding authority.

There is never a sure thing in litigation, but on this one I'd rather be the Plaintiff's lawyer than the Defendant's lawyer......and if the fact situation was changed a bit to involve loss of a high end collection due to similar facts involving a high end and collectable dealer,it would be a very desirable case to bring.

You state this:
However, your original point was that there could not be a successful case brought because "I've never heard of a successful IBD case".

And here is my initial post on the subject, from which you took the above quote:

You would have a lawsuit that would have to show negligence on the seller's part. "Buyer beware" is still rule number #1 where there are no statutes violated. There are no industry standards, especially with wholesalers, that any wholesaler could have been shown to have ignored or violated. There's another thread in the BOI where a buyer of higher-end boids had a strong position regarding buying IBD infected animals, and was initially trumpeting how they were going to pursue all legal recourse. I sympathized fully with the buyer's plight, no legal action materialized, and the buyer lost all. That's reality. Show me one successful IBD civil case, pending or otherwise.

Left out a little bit, huh. The point of asking to see a successful case was to show that there hasn't been one yet to serve as a roadmap, and to imply how easy it would go was a big leap. The TSE situation demonstrated to many here that there is a significant threshold between fairness and justice, as until someone has actually been there, they often underestimate it.

I genuinely thank you for the discussion.

Originally Posted by Jon Mitchell

I did send him an email although I don't expect him to return it. He knew he sold me an animal that was at the very least sick if not contaiminated with IBD. Like I said in other emails, he never ate on his own nor deficated. All Allen wanted to do was have me send it back and him "try to get it going again". I have my fingers crossed that it didn't infect the rest of my collection.

I did read the posts and put him in the fridge before he was frozen. I have always heard to put them in the freezer but I took him out. I am having my vey send him out to a reptile pathologist so I can get the best results possible.

Thanks guys,

Jon

I have my fingers crossed for you as well, Jon. Do you have a time frame in which you might have test results?

Originally Posted by Chameleon Company

You state this:
However, your original point was that there could not be a successful case brought because "I've never heard of a successful IBD case".

And here is my initial post on the subject, from which you took the above quote:



Left out a little bit, huh. The point of asking to see a successful case was to show that there hasn't been one yet to serve as a roadmap, and to imply how easy it would go was a big leap. The TSE situation demonstrated to many here that there is a significant threshold between fairness and justice, as until someone has actually been there, they often underestimate it.

I genuinely thank you for the discussion.

Didn't mean to leave anything out,thought I had summarized the main point, and addressed the others in the quoted stuff.

You still have not answered my questions about are you aware of any unsuccessful IBD cases being brought?

The spider got sent out today for a necropsy. I did send a complaint to KS but I am sure nothing will be done about it. Allen has his ads back up again tonight selling super pastels/66% het ghosts for very very cheap for those interested......

I should have the results back within a week but not sure what they will find. I did freeze him without thinking about IBD being a retroVIRUS and that the freezer would kill any said virus. Looks like Allen might be off the hook with this one too.

I ordered replacement spiders from another great dealer that I have had great luck with. Needless to say, they will not be anywhere near anything the spider was for quite some time.

Jon Mitchell

Jon,

That really sucks about your spider. I hope it doesn't come back as IBD..........

Corey

Lloyd,

..... are you aware of any unsuccessful IBD cases being brought?

Only know that a few have talked about initiating such. It would be interesting if and when, although that "if and when" would likely end in a settlement, and it would not surprise me if part of the settlement was for all parties to go quietly.

In my opinion anyone knowingly selling carriers should be held criminally negligent-like if you sold beef with BSE, but we all know reptiles are not treated that way so it would just end up a civil suit. In which case the victims will never recover any money, just like the many reptile thefts and the TSE scam.

I have been and am in many industries and it pains me to say that the reptile industry which is my passion has the largest percentage of scumbags out of them all.


ben cole