The Death Penalty

This way, to me, would be more punishable than death, and cheaper for the tax payers as well. I know the prisons are overrun as it is, but it costs tons of money to execute people and it would actually be cheaper to keep them alive.

I've never seen a single statistic that claims life imprisonment is cheaper than execution. The standard of living for criminals in the system is anything but punishing. Many prisoners enjoy benefits that aren't even available to many law-abiding citizens. That IMHO is outrageous.

I'll freely admit that mistakes do occur. The question is how often. I think it is ridiculous to suggest that we should lower our collective standards to address the occasional "what if". There are so many checks and balances in place these days that the risk of executing an innocent is minimal at best. Texas has already seen results from streamlining the death penalty process. Executions are now taking place in just years as opposed to decades. Is it working? Death penalty eligible crimes are down in just about every single category.

Do mistakes happen? Sure. Does that mean that no offender should be punished and held accountable just in case a mistake might happen? Absolutely not.

According to http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org, Although the costs of incarceration are expensive (about $20,000 per year per inmate), that amounts to $600,000 to $800,000 depending on whether a person lives 30 or 40 years after their sentencing. The death penalty, on the other hand, costs about $2 million per execution.

I think it is ridiculous to suggest that we should lower our collective standards to address the occasional "what if".

So you're saying that just because the majority of people executed deserve what's coming to them it is of little consequence the innocent people we kill? That doesn't make sense. So you're saying if you were put on death row and were truely innocent but no one believed you, we should still ban together chanting, "Fry him!"

Ok if you guys want to talk a few statistics, in 2000, Illinois Governor George Ryan ordered a halt to executions because 13 inmates on death row were actually proven innocent. Since 1973, there have been 87 death row prisoners set free based on new evidence that exonerated them.

And as for prisons being overcrowded, yes they are. But mainly from the war on drugs as opposed to violent crimes with victims. I am always baffled when a drug lord or someone with RICO charges is in prison longer than a murder, wife beater, or child molester.

Recent studies in Oklahoma and California failed to find that capital punishment had a deterrent effect on violent crime and, in fact, found a significant increase in stranger killings and homicide rates after the death penalty had been reinstated. (William Bailey, “Deterrence, Brutalization, and the Death Penalty,” Criminology, 1998; Ernie Thompson, “Effects of an Execution on Homicides in California.” Homicide Studies, 1999)
The murder rate in Canada has dropped by 40% since the death penalty was abolished in that country in 1976. (Amnesty International)
A Texas study determined in 1999 that there was no relation between the number of executions and murder rates in general. (Victoria Brewer, Robert Wrinkle, John Sorenson and James Marquart)
The five countries with the highest homicide rates that do not impose the death penalty average 21.6 murders per 100,000 people. The five countries with the highest homicide rate that do impose the death penalty average 41.6 murders for every 100,000 people. (United Nations Development Program)

And as for cost, its really cheaper to keep em around. In 1995, New York brought back the death penalty even though the department of corrections estimated that it would cost over $2 million per case and approximately $118 million annually. That same year, state leaders complained that there was a budget shortfall and made dramatic cuts in funding for public higher education and health care. In 1991 New Jersey spent $16 million to impose the death penalty. The next year the state laid off 500 police officers because they could not afford to pay them.

-Whit

Cheers to those statistics, Whit....so the dealth penalty should be abolished by those facts ALONE now all we have to do it convince people it is MORALLY wrong as well!

Originally posted by llechler
According to http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org, Although the costs of incarceration are expensive (about $20,000 per year per inmate), that amounts to $600,000 to $800,000 depending on whether a person lives 30 or 40 years after their sentencing. The death penalty, on the other hand, costs about $2 million per execution.

First off, the source of your "facts" is one of the more vocal anti-death penalty groups around. I'm sure they are completely unbiased. I'd equate their accuracy and believability with any "gun statistic" published by Sarah Brady.


Here are the real facts For Texas :

1. Texas in 2002 spent more than $22,476.70/yr for each death row inmate.

2. The average time on death row is only 10.43 years

3. The cost of the actual execution is only $86.08

4. The total average cost to execute an inmate in Texas is $234,518.06.

So where is the other $1,765481.94 go?

I can only assume they count the court costs. Unfortunately, legal fees are also incurred for non-death convictions as well. Where did Death Penalty.org account for those costs?? Doesn’t appear that they did.

Well, Texas streamlined that entire process, capping the number of appeals, effectively eliminating this as an argument. The appeals and execution process has now been shortened enough that the punishment is actually becoming effective.

So let's compare the post conviction costs of incarceration v. execution:

Instead of taking decades at $23k/yr, the process is over in under eight years. That drops the costs argument by more than $120,000. Of the 10 remaining inmates scheduled for execution in 2004, 5 have been on death row for less than 8 years. MOF, since passing the legislation that streamlined the capital process, Texas has executed several prisoners with a total stay of less than 265 DAYS on Death Row. $$cha-ching$$ another savings ($211,955.28)

Average execution cost in Texas = < $100 - $200,000k

Average 40 years incarceration cost in Texas = $899,068

HMMMM............

Originally posted by llechler
So you're saying that just because the majority of people executed deserve what's coming to them it is of little consequence the innocent people we kill? [/b]

No, I'm saying that morally we can’t overlook or set aside the legally obtained, and justifiable conviction, of the overwhelming majority of capital murders for the occasional "what if" statistic.

Morals don't have a damn thing to do with this. "Eye for and eye" isn't that the saying. So by that rational don't you think a life for a life would be fitting.

Now granted cops can lie, cheat, and steal with some of the best criminals out there. But they are not all that way. DA's want to be in the news headlines as much as they want to win cases to prove to their voters they are doing a good job keeping the community safe. But it all boils down to if the police have done a good job with their investigation. Massive public pressure from the news media can put them in a bind to find someone who has commited a brutal killing such as Lacy Peterson. And sadly folks, if you are married and you spouse is killed you are on the short list of suspects just by process of elimination.

Illinois was a wake up call to show how bad out justice system really is. And I really don't think a murder would be afraid of a life sentence. You have to understand the pecking order of a prision to see a murder has it made. They are on the top of the pecking order list becasue they killed to become incarcerated. Next down you have yor armed robbers and druglords. Further down you have other theives and violent offenders. At the bottom is the rapiest and child molesters who have to be housed in special units because the general population will rape and kill them at the drop of a hat. So even in prison rapists and child molesters are hated, quite fitting IMO.

Morals don't have a damn thing to do with this. "Eye for and eye" isn't that the saying. So by that rational don't you think a life for a life would be fitting.

Actually, I do believe morals have a place in this discussion. I think it is morally wrong to kill someone, no matter who that person is or what they have done. One life is not more important than another. And we should not be condoning and encouraging death. The saying is an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, meaning to kill someone because they have killed someone is not the way to end killing. It just perpetuates it. And, I most definitely think that a life for a life is sick and wrong.

...and everything to do with personal responsibility and the consequence of action. No matter what you may believe, crime and punishment go hand and hand. The flipside of "free will" and personal freedom is that each one of your choices will generate a consequence.

Maybe this is one area we can agree on. Just because I don't believe in a life for a life doesn't mean I believe murderers and rapists should be set free with a slap on the wrist. They need punishment in life in prison with no parole. I'm just saying they shouldn't be executed.

You are entitled to your opinion. Of course, the poll shows that people are overwhelmingly in favor of frying these folks. And the prison population is growing out of control, I understand how it works and that my taxes have to keep them there, but I frankly work hard and do not want to support someone for life.
It's not like they get the chair for jaywalking, you know.....