Outside enclosure for pit vipers

My new house is going to be right on the AL/GA line on Sand Mtn. Neither state has any restrictions what so ever on native venomous. We can catch, relocate, breed, release as we see fit. I am not an advocate of relocating adult snakes. I think there is a high mortality rate and that has been proven. However, I think juvenile snakes can be relocated and released with much better success. The snakes ear marked for release will not be captive born so to speak. They will be the naturally occurring offspring of the adults living in the outdoor set up. Still in the planning stages, but I suppose I will give them one winter in the pit, then release them when warm weather hits the following spring. that should give them 6 to 7 months to feed and establish themselves before they they have to go under. The whole purpose of this venture is to keep these snakes as "wild" as possible. If for example, the people that have me de-snake their farm decide to move and the new owners want the snakes to de-rat the place, if we know exactly where is came from, we can put it back. If we take off spring from genetically pure snakes from that region only, they can be released a couple miles from the farm in densely forested areas that have very little human traffic, if any at all. The state of GA at one point, decided there wasn't enough horridus on fort Mtn, which is about 30 miles from me. So they, in all there wisdom, released a ton of south GA canes on the Mtn. Now mostly what you find are light pink horridus up there. Occasionally we find a true dark timber, which is what should be there. It upsets me to see that. And last summer a young lady was bitten on the back side and died. I can't help but wonder if she would still be alive had they not introduced the more lethal venom of the southern canes to the area. I am just basically looking for a way to give back. we have taken and taken and I am tired of living by the pirate's code.



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Samuel 'Chuck' Hurd
Professional Educator / Venomous Reptile Curator
www.ChuckHurd.com
423.580.7513 (txt capable)

All of which completely ignores the signifigant issue of potential contamination of wild populations by non-native bacteria, viruses and endoparasites that captive animals are likely to be exposed to as a result of their feeding and watering regime and the exposure and potential cross contamination with the owners non-native or non-local collection.

Originally Posted by Seamus Haley

All of which completely ignores the signifigant issue of potential contamination of wild populations by non-native bacteria, viruses and endoparasites that captive animals are likely to be exposed to as a result of their feeding and watering regime and the exposure and potential cross contamination with the owners non-native or non-local collection.

I agree with Seamus for the same reasons. Most states prohibit this for this very reason. Here's a file with more info. http://www.parcplace.org/DontTurn.pdf

Originally Posted by Seamus Haley

All of which completely ignores the signifigant issue of potential contamination of wild populations by non-native bacteria, viruses and endoparasites that captive animals are likely to be exposed to as a result of their feeding and watering regime and the exposure and potential cross contamination with the owners non-native or non-local collection.

christ, you do realize that WILD ANIMALS come in contact with unnatural things on occasion, right? you know, those highways, homes, humans, rodents who live in your attic, etc, those types of things?

you are being antagonistic as is always the case with you, but i'm betting that you don't even have a nub to stand on, much less a complete leg or two, but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

so tell me, how is taking a WILD snake, keeping it OUTDOORS IN THE SAME 'WILD' IT CAME FROM, and having minimal interaction with it going to kill off every wild snake IF it was to be release back to the same wild? you think frozen rodents are that infested? then who the hell is going to wanna feed those infested rodents to their captive animals? i'd personally refrain from doing so. one of the main reasons people recommend frozen/thawed food is because of the way most bacteria and parasites, IF present, are killed. but let's say this wild animal contracts a bug or two and doesn't die. where is the risk. i'm assuming the same gut flora present in the first wild animal is present in the other wild animals since they are from the same exact area.

there is a huge difference in what chuck is proposing vs. releasing a captive animal back into the wild. a lot of "what ifs" exist in this area as well. the fact of the matter is that wild animals prey on rodents who run through our homes and ingest unnatural things. that isn't a problem. releasing an animal with OPMV into the wild is a completely different subject than what this thread deals with. it's a non-issue. these animals wouldn't be able to contract anything that they don't already have in their wild population.

don't IGNORE the fact that a TON of propaganda is used with these sorts of subjects. it's like the whole venomoid debate, far more propaganda and "what ifs" than facts. same with venomous-related legislation. what ifs are used, not many facts.

there is far more risk involved in research when they take a wild animal back to the lab, inmplant a chip and then let it go a few days later.

chuck's animals will literally never leave the wild.

Originally Posted by Tim Cole

I agree with Seamus for the same reasons. Most states prohibit this for this very reason. Here's a file with more info. http://www.parcplace.org/DontTurn.pdf

did you even read your own link?

it deals with classroom pets and "surplus laboratory animals". these will be neither, but i find it interesting that they used the term SURPLUS. are they insinuating that they have no problem with a number of animals that don't meet the definition of SURPLUS?

it's also dealing with non-native species and/or animals not from the area. as for "degradation of the gene pool", well, isn't that what closed off populations suffer from? weakened immune systems and the like thanks to inbreeding? how would an animal that is TOTALLY unrelated harm a populations gene pool? if anything, it would be a positive, although not much of an impact either way.

but it's totally irrelevant since these won't be lab animals, classroom pets or even animals that have seen the inside of a cage other than the fence that basically keeps them in an area that they can be examined. it's as natural as it gets and probably less intrusive than sticking a AA battery sized tracking device under the skin in an UNNATURAL laboratory.

I simply do not buy into it. What I am planning to do with timbers from Sand Mtn, is exactly the formula that was used with alligators all over the southeast and it was what brought them back from the brink of excitation. I am a reasonable man, so provide an argument that against the example of the alligators and explain how a rattlesnake can be contaminated being kept on its same mountain range, kept outside in the same environment, and never brought into contact with any of my other collection. First off, I do not keep any exotics. I have nothing but southeastern pit vipers. However, they are not all from the region. I will have timbers from NY and EDB's and cottons from South FL....but these snakes are going to be inside of the snake lab, they will never be near the pit and the pit animals will never be in the lab. never the two shall meet. The problem with organization like PARC is they assume everyone keeping reptiles are idiots. Of course you don't want to take a rattlesnake from Lookout Mtn, keep it in a collection of exotic snakes for a few months, then release it on Sand Mtn. Organization like PARC facilitate the same elitist attitude that the AZA does. They are the only ones with the capability to correctly do anything. That is crap and we all know it. Most of the information on these animals concerning health, husbandry, ect comes from US the private sector. The ones that are keeping and working with them on a daily basis.



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Samuel 'Chuck' Hurd
Professional Educator / Venomous Reptile Curator
www.ChuckHurd.com
423.580.7513 (txt capable)

and read

"I hope
we are not talking about releasing snakes held in captivity into the wild?"