A.N.G. Pets and Exotics - Disgusting!

Bobby why do you insist on reading into what people write? Wes didn't say it was Right or Wrong ! Just as I don't see it as being Right but I do see it as his right to do what he wants with what belongs to him.

You don't like it fine I got that from your first post but then you drag in our ethics and morals?? I could read into your post to say you have something against those with handicaps ! see what I'm saying?? Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't make it wrong for someone else to do it.. As far as I know he didn't break any laws or even bend any .

So what next, if he sells it are we going to drag the buyer in here as well ? why not the buyers parents as they raised their kid with in Bobby's opinion poor ethics and Morals . I'm sure others feel as you do Bobby but there are those of us that feel he has the right to do what he wants despite some folks disapproval.

Funny how one week we say hey it doesn't belong on the BOI unless a deal has taken place and the next week we are hear lambasting someone over an add because we don't like his morals.. There was no deal made so why is this on the BOI ? Just because a name was mentioned? well damn some one's name gets mentioned in most every thread on this site, guess they all belong here then..

And once again just because I defend this yahoo's right to do what he wants with his Property doesn't mean I would of Buy, sell, breed, cook, eat ETC ETC blind snakes. So go ahead read things into what I said ETC ETC knock yourself out but if your going to bring up Ethics and Morals best look at your own first.. Randy

Well Randy, I guess you missed this part:

Wes: I'll say there is nothing wrong with breeding it if it breeds true.

No one stuck his hand in the mixing bowl and made this snake. It just happened. If it can live and reproduce and there's a market for the babies, go for it.

So you can think it is fine to profit off handicaps and even create more for the money all you wish to. I will still say it is wrong, as well as morally lacking, just as this animal is lacking eyes, and as far as the ethics they are gone. That is my opinion on it, it has been that way from day one long, long ago, and that is not going to change now or ever. It is called, right and wrong, and black and white, I will not try to ever see something like this as a good thing or agree it is even close to good. It is very sad and sick at best.

So I will agree to disagree very strongly, and that is my opinion.

i have given aways snakes with no eyes--judging by the way his price keeps going down, I do not think there is much of a market for them. Two headed snakes, now that is a different story-I have seen them go for alot. Other genetic defect ie albinism brings more money in most species. It is a free market. If he wants to try to sell a no eyes snake so be it--his other ads not sure about though- like his yellow mangrove hybrid ad--$150--wow--was not aware of anyone successfully breeding those two species together and how much they actually just look like a mangrove monitor. Also like the hypo nile ad with the water monitor used as a comparison color shot. I am actually shocked that no one has mentioned these.

Originally Posted by ben siegel

his yellow mangrove hybrid ad--$150--wow--was not aware of anyone successfully breeding those two species together and how much they actually just look like a mangrove monitor. Also like the hypo nile ad with the water monitor used as a comparison color shot. I am actually shocked that no one has mentioned these.

It just goes to show he is not a trustworrhy seller IMO.
Based on his ads, he will do anything to make a buck. Whether it is selling defected animals or misrepresenting animals. In addition, coming here and defending himself by posting as if he was someone else, shows his true character.
One to be avoided IMO.

Some man live his life for profits alone, but that very same man he lives his life all alone.

"Collie Man" - Slightly Stoopid

Ben, you have brought up some good thought provoking ideas, however, I have to agree to some degree with Bobby here. That animal has no place in the market. Yes, some yahoo could buy it and that's what bothers me the most, the fact that a deformed animal should ever be sold for profit.

If and this is a big if, said animal will survive, then it should be given away to a responsible loving keeper, not sold to the highest bidder. Had one of my animals produced it, I would have culled it, but that's just me and my opinion.

What one calls morally reprehensible another says it's not. That's what makes this industry what it is. Although I do not feel that morals have a lot to do with this thread, ethics, and responsibility do.

We keep defining genetic defects at everything that differs from the standard. An albino snake is a genetic defect but only because the environment might not let her survive compared to a "normal" animal. Evolution has taught at different though, panthers (a mutation) survive in the wild, blind fish survive in caves and the bottom of the ocean, what about cave salamanders. What we see as defects evolution has allowed the species give it a try and if the mutation is advantageous in any way the animal will survive. Defects that are invalidating will be culled naturally without our help. Of course now we have them in captivity so we need to decide ourselves! But albino and melanic snakes are still captured in the wild. Small insular boas have adapted their size to a reduced food supply, and so on.

Wes said something really interesting:

And also, you keep anthropomorphising this snake. How do YOU know if feels a lack, that it is unhappy, that it knows there is something wrong (and by whose definition is another important question) with it?

We need to try to avoid anthropomorphising snakes. If not it really should create a tremendous internal fight in any person with an ounce of sensibility, and you know why? Because probably there are lots of people who think that culling imperfect animals is the way to go.

If its brain is as small and simple as I think it is, all it really has any care at all about is being warm, getting water and food and MAYBE breeding. Not all snakes want to breed. All of us who do it know that.

With that I happen to agree. Not so long ago someone gave me three baby ball pythons with birth defects, all of them almost blind one of them with a shorter mandible that even impair him to drink. Only one of them would feed on it's own for a while, the third one couldn't even drink...all three are gone "natural selection" was helped out...

To one degree or another, all of us in the business sell animals for money (maybe even profit!) that are perfectly healthy in our hands, but will end up being killed by the person we sell them to. Admittedly, on the chameleon end, I sell a whole lot of animals that were bred to die prematurely so that I could pay my bills. I could tell you that my intentions were otherwise, but so what ! Didn't take "no eyes", etc, or some other detracting quality. Just a difficult animal sold to someone with money for me, who meant well, and meaning well was just not good enough. I guess no matter where you think you sit on the moral highway, there will always be one who thinks they sit ahead of you ! With luck, they will be downwind at an opportune time for me to let them know my appreciation for them

I am with Wes, Randy, and Ben on this one.

So animals that should be on a scratch and dent sale list at best, are just fine to sell as better than normals, grade AAA+++ all the way, and if you got em, sell em? Hell, just reproduce more of them if you can, it's all good, right? I mean it is all about supply and demand, correct? Now sub-par animals are much better and worth more than ones that have all of the body parts? They are just so special; they are worth all the extra dough.

And it has nothing at all to do with morals or ethics, because what are ethics and morals when all that matters is the money?

Yea OK then, to each his own....

i find it less appealing to cull an imperfect animal that COULD live an otherwise "regular" life. some birth defects are just impossible to get by. that i understand totally. some are very noticeable (no eyes, derma ball, etc) but if the animals eats, poops and seems otherwise fine, then why would you wanna kill it? i understand not breeding some of them but that's on the person who bred them. to me, it is simply saying "i don't wanna care for this animal". i've heard folks talk about culling imperfect animals in a way that makes them sound like they believe they're doing the animal and the rest of us a favor. it's just another load of crap, they're taking the easy way out and not assuming the responsibility. if you breed enough animals, some will be imperfect and while some may be horribly deformed, others can get by just fine.