Gubitz, a response please

I'm tossing this in the GBD forum rather than on the BOI because, as of now with the scant information avaliable surrounding the issue I intend to raise, there isn't *quite* enough information to make a descision about how it reflects on you and your business reputation... Hopefully... and I mean that in all sincerity because I really don't want to see another six hundred page Neil thread, everything can be cleared up and answered in a manner that allows this topic to drift away into the back pages. If the answers indicate a BOI post is warranted in one direction or another, I'll either ask the mods to move the thread (if they have time and agree that it should be moved) or start a new one with all the information.

There is a thread on the BOI where Neil was giving positive feedback to another individual for some CB animals which are rarely seen as CB... That was questioned, it's a thread unto itself and really not what I want to get into here, but some background is important for anyone reading one thread and not the other. In that thread, Neil indicated that he performed fecal smears using his friend's son's microscope in order to check for parasites. This raises a LOT of questions, depending on the answers it may be important or may be meaningless.

As far as the fecals go, my buddy next door has a son who's really into biology, and he has a microscope.... I literally take a fecal sample over and *I* look at it through the microscope (as any Vet would).... if I see ANYTHING moving around, I take that animal straight to a REAL Vet for diagnosis and medication (if any is needed)....

The above is the specific quote which causes concern.

Now... it's certainly possible for someone to do their own fecal smears and floats in their own home. Heck, I do it myself every six months or so as a precaution in my own animals and have for years however the phrasing in the above quote leaves a lot of questions as to the procedure that is followed when Neil does his own. While they can be done by anyone who understands the process, they do require time and effort to do *correctly* or in any way which is at all meaningful. Not every microorganism in a pile of feces is going to be a parasite (there are naturally occuring symbiotic gut fauna) and not every parasite is going to be moving OR large enough to see with all microscopes. There are a few other details involved in performing a fecal smear that I'm not going to state directly, because I'd really like confirmation from Neil without the exact details being stated in advance. There are a few other portions of his statement which are a cause for GREAT concern over how he's performing these, but it was a very offhanded description and it MAY simply be an incomplete description.

So Neil... the following questions are directed towards you...

1) Can you describe, in exacting detail the steps you take when you perform one of these smears? Please be as detailed as you feel is reasonable in your description of the sample used, how the slide is prepared and the specs of the microscope used. I can tell you right now that if any important steps are left out, the assumption will be that you didn't take them or were unaware that they needed to be taken, so accuracy is important.

2) How long have you been using this method as a preliminary test?

3) Would you be willing to cite specific examples of when these tests were and were not performed by you as related to animals you are known to have sold and what the results were when they happened? Do you perform these fecals on every animal you sell or only ones which are showing clear signs of problems? If it's only ones showing problems, why perform the tests at all, since a vet trip is in order regardless?

4) Have you ever told a customer that a fecal was performed when you used this method, but the animal did not subsequently see a vet? Were you specific in noting that you performed the fecal yourself and that it was NOT perfromed by a vet?

5) While a parasitologist can probably reccognize most of the more commonly encountered and unpleasant microorganisms, anyone who hasn't devoted a massive amount of time and study towards the field needs refference works to identify one organism sitting in a warm squishy pile from another. Even the experts would be hard pressed to visually identify the thousands upon thousands of species which can be found living in the large intestine, this is even more true when dealing with a wide range of species from all over the world. I know I have to spend a good deal of time identifying anything I find when I perform my own fecals and I'd wager I've got more experience in the process than you have so... Which refference work/identification guide do you use, if any?

Again... I really hope your answers to the above questions (or any follow-ups requesting clarification) can settle this in a satisfactory manner here and now so that it doesn't have to be a BOI thread. While I dislike you and your business practices, it's really more of a headache than it's worth and frankly I'd rather see EVERYONE acting like a true good guy and conducting themselves honestly. It's better for the industry, better for the hobby and better for my ulcers (which I haven't actually got but were used as a fictitious example to illustrate a concept).

Seamus.... I KNOW you're only writing this thread to start more trouble, but, this ONE TIME I will answer it....

I don't take animals to the Vet unless they are VISUALLY sick or "not doing well".... When I get an animal in-house, the first time it deficates, I take a small amount next door and look at it under the microscope.... it's not perfect, but it works for me.... I don't worry about eggs or floats, but if I SEE anything under the microscope "moving", I will then take that animal to a REAL Vet to see what's up.... If I have that animal for another two weeks, I look at the fecal AGAIN "for anything moving", and then follow my steps above.... It's not perfect, but it's a lot better than most do, and I refuse to spend hundreds of dollars with a Vet....
I'm NOT a Vet, and I know it's not a perfect procedure, but since the incident with Rozann, I have been doing it ever since, just for my own curiosity, if the animal looks healthy, is eating, is "frisky", and shows no outward signs of ill-health, what I do is fine for MY purposes.... sure, there MIGHT be eggs that I don't see, but they obviously haven't hatched yet, and in two weeks down the road, I will look again, etc, etc....

I hope that answers your question, because it's the last you will hear about it from me.... If you don't agree with what I have been doing.... oh well.... it's better than doing nothing??....

Neil

Originally posted by Seamus Haley
So Neil... the following questions are directed towards you...

1) Can you describe, in exacting detail the steps you take when you perform one of these smears? Please be as detailed as you feel is reasonable in your description of the sample used, how the slide is prepared and the specs of the microscope used. I can tell you right now that if any important steps are left out, the assumption will be that you didn't take them or were unaware that they needed to be taken, so accuracy is important.

2) How long have you been using this method as a preliminary test?

3) Would you be willing to cite specific examples of when these tests were and were not performed by you as related to animals you are known to have sold and what the results were when they happened? Do you perform these fecals on every animal you sell or only ones which are showing clear signs of problems? If it's only ones showing problems, why perform the tests at all, since a vet trip is in order regardless?

4) Have you ever told a customer that a fecal was performed when you used this method, but the animal did not subsequently see a vet? Were you specific in noting that you performed the fecal yourself and that it was NOT perfromed by a vet?

5) While a parasitologist can probably reccognize most of the more commonly encountered and unpleasant microorganisms, anyone who hasn't devoted a massive amount of time and study towards the field needs refference works to identify one organism sitting in a warm squishy pile from another. Even the experts would be hard pressed to visually identify the thousands upon thousands of species which can be found living in the large intestine, this is even more true when dealing with a wide range of species from all over the world. I know I have to spend a good deal of time identifying anything I find when I perform my own fecals and I'd wager I've got more experience in the process than you have so... Which refference work/identification guide do you use, if any?

Again... I really hope your answers to the above questions (or any follow-ups requesting clarification) can settle this in a satisfactory manner here and now so that it doesn't have to be a BOI thread. While I dislike you and your business practices, it's really more of a headache than it's worth and frankly I'd rather see EVERYONE acting like a true good guy and conducting themselves honestly. It's better for the industry, better for the hobby and better for my ulcers (which I haven't actually got but were used as a fictitious example to illustrate a concept).

I guess you just didn't see these in Seamus' post so I'm putting them up here for you again since I KNOW you read ALL my posts.

I'd SURE like to know the answers too.

Wes Pollock

If I have that animal for another two weeks, I look at the fecal AGAIN

An interesting note... You sell animals you've had for less than two weeks as being healthy and feeding?

Since you also said you'd perform your home fecals the first time an animal deficated, do you sometimes sell animals before they have time to deficate in your posession?

Neil, I really would like specific and detailed answers to the questions I raised in the numbered section above. The issue isn't going to go away until some kind of conclusion is reached. I honestly thought you might have enough integrity to answer the questions if they were posed in a straightforward manner with as little bias as possible, considering my opinion of you. Clearly I was wrong and gave you more credit than you deserved... again.

Since it's NOT going to go away, you really have three choices... answer here, answer in a way that settles it and it can be done and over with... wait until Wes is forced to hound you and get dozens of people interested and make some kind of massive two hundred page issue out of it (Wes wants the answers too, as well he should and you know he's determined enough to stay on this)... continue to refuse to answer in any fashion, ever and leave anyone who reads this with a continually worsening impression of you. Obviously your answers aren't going to satisfy anyone who already has a low opinion of you, but you *might* keep those people sitting on the fence as potantial customers if your answers are good. I'm also not so wrapped up in your exploits that I'll deny the proper procedure if you can describe it, if your answers are good then I'll agree that they're good and the whole thing can dissapear.

You're not stupid Neil... you know the concerns raised are quite valid and responding to them clearly will settle it as far as my involvement.

If you don't agree with what I have been doing.... oh well.... it's better than doing nothing??....

That really can't be determined yet. I mean... improperly done, a fecal smear is totally and absolutely 100% worthless, nothing more than a waste of time. Done properly it's an extremely valuable tool that can be used to gague the health of an animal. Since you deal with many resale animals, an extended quaranteen period (six-twelve months) is simply not a reasonable expectation if you're going to run a business and properly performed fecals are a GREAT way to catch any potential problems before they become a problem with a customer. You have been very vague about how the fecals are done and how much stock you place in them... While you say any animals showing additional symptoms are taken to a vet (or, I suspect, euthanized if you've got a realistic business model) there also hasn't been any clear explaination as to how much stock you place in the fecals you perform. If they're done properly, then they can be relied on, if they're done improperly then they can't... you have yet to make it clear how much reliance you place in them however. If they're done improperly but you place no real stock in them, that's fine too, you can play around with all the feces you want and I really don't care if it accomplishes anything or not, provided you've got a reasonable set of practices in place to ensure animals are healthy when you sell them.

Once again... please just answer the questions, they themselves are straightforward and as unbiased as I could possibly make them... you've already hinted around the edges of some of the answers (and I find no fault with the semi-answers you did provide) but it would be much better if they were answered directly so that there can be no room for misinterpretation.

While you say any animals showing additional symptoms are taken to a vet (or, I suspect, euthanized if you've got a realistic business model)

The above is from Seamus' post in this thread. Below is a quote from gubitz that tends to lend some credence to what Seamus has suggested.

However, I would like to suggest that gubitz just plain Sells the animals in question no matter what his "fecals" may or may not show. Afterall, he has stated himself that he "is in this business for the money just like everyone else", which I still disagree with in part. NOT everyone is in this business JUST for the money.

I am SURE gubitz IS just in it for the money.

Originally posted by Neil Gubitz
I refuse to spend hundreds of dollars with a Vet....
I'm NOT a Vet, and I know it's not a perfect procedure, but since the incident with Rozann, I have been doing it ever since, just for my own curiosityNeil

Do I move this thread to HELL now, or wait for the inevitable discourse?

Webslave,

In my opinion it is more of an inquiry on Neil's husbandry/business practices and thus should be added to one of his existent threads in the BOI. There is probably not enough merit (yet) to send it to "Hell"

Regards.

gubitz, I see that you keep coming here over and over and over. Yet you post NOTHING.

Are you confused by what Seamus has asked for? All he wants is to know, STEP BY STEP, exactly how you do your fecals, how often you do them, which animals you do them to, how long you have been doing them, and what you do when you have done your exam. Oh, and he wants to know what type of equipment you use, slides and the acutrements to go with them, what type of microscope and any ancillary components that go into the make up of your magical ability to do fecals the way you have stated you do them.

Pretty simple. Please explain. MANY folks are now VERY curious about this latest ability you claim to posess.

thanks ever so much,
Wes Pollock

OK, guys, here's the thing:

Neil isn't going to post anything further. He stated that in his only post to this thread. He said all he is going to say. He indicated himself that he's not a vet and it's not a perfect procedure, but he does it for his own curiosity on animals that appear outwardly healthy. That's all he's going to say, and everyone can make their own determination on whether or not that has any bearing on whether or not they would buy from him.

wait until Wes is forced to hound you and get dozens of people interested and make some kind of massive two hundred page issue out of it (Wes wants the answers too, as well he should and you know he's determined enough to stay on this)...

That's what I'm afraid of. The Wes/Neil thing is so out of hand, and so damaging overall, that it makes me truly sad every time I see a new post (although I, like most, stopped reading them long ago).

One question: it was pointed out that "Wes wants the answers too, as well he should". Why? Wes has not ever purchased anything from Neil, nor do I think he's contemplating a purchase from Neil. So why does Wes want the answers?

Accept that he is not going to answer anymore, since that is what he stated. If anyone wants to point out the flaws in what Neil is doing, then they should do so. Then (and this is the important part) let the people who read the thread make their own determination.

BTW, Seamus, I appreciate that you didn't put this in the BOI, because it really didn't belong there....but maybe it should be moved to the husbandry forums? I'm not sure.

"One question: it was pointed out that "Wes wants the answers too, as well he should". Why? Wes has not ever purchased anything from Neil, nor do I think he's contemplating a purchase from Neil. So why does Wes want the answers?"

The above is from Ms. Terese in this thread.

Posting on this forum is not a right. It's a priveledge. There is a definate good and bad guy feeling that goes through it and anyone, at least I hope so, who has been reading for a while knows this.

gubitz keeps saying that he has changed, he is NO LONGER doing what he has done in the past. That simply isn't true.

Then he brings up things like these "fecal exams" that he does. This would lead some, who don't know any better, to think that he does them not only routinely but properly. I don't think that he does.

His actions DIRECTLY reflect on everyone here. The fact that he bugs me personally is just a small part of it. No matter who they were if ANYONE else came here and TIME AND TIME AGAIN lied and mislead and said "Ohhhhh I didn't know that," I would do the same. See ken yates and upstate exotics or even cameron gluhcheff.

Yup, I'm vocal and not always pleasant. So far I've been right about neil. The fact that he STILL is here bothers me. How many times do you have to abuse a priveledge before it's taken away for good?

Yes, I've been kicked off twice myself but, for what? Lying? Misleading? Sending out emails calling ALL members morons and a$$holes?

NO.

Being a tad (mildly understated) overzealous and that's about it. It lead me to say some things I shouldn't have, I think I actually used a swear word ONCE on the boi, called him a scumbag a time or two and got points for so now I don't do that on the BOI, posted off topic to hound him. Well, now there is HELL. Since it's inception I have brought up NONE of gubitzs' old ways.

Some of us can change. Some of us can learn.

It offends me personally to still see him here. Since I don't like him I ask him questions. Some of you are 100% behind me and don't want it known and some of you just don't care and some of you don't like what I do. Gotcha.

That is why I ask, Terese, and I'm not hounding you or trying to give you a hard time or anything like that.

Much like the junkie on the corner I think that neil should be avoided and I am the one who says so in no uncertain terms. I don't think he can be rehabilitated. I think it's time to cut him loose and let him do whatever he wants ON HIS OWN.

I'll leave it, curiousity unabated. For now. I'm sure he'll get his feet back in his mouth again soon. Then I'll have to decide again what to do. If it's new, like this parasite thing, I may want to talk about it. If not, I'll just laugh in the background.

Wes Pollock