Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

Originally Posted by tim brophy

The one thing that has puzzled me in this entire thread is this. Just who really buys water snakes? In the herpetocultural community they are insignificant. A few keepers have an interest in them, as evidenced by this thread. but not too many. Not enough to account for the number Underground Reptiles sells. So who buys all of these inexpensive and very common snakes? I believe it is folks who keep snakes that are snake-eaters (e.g. king cobras, cribos, etc.). They use them as snake food. Can SFD be transmitted in this manner?

Speaking for myself, I bought the water snakes because while I've always been curious about them as captives, I'd never actually kept one before. I keep mostly pythons, boas, and a few other select colubrids, so when I saw the CB babies for sale I decided to try my hand at a new (for me) and somewhat underrepresented species. For the experience, you could say. If only 100 people see the ad each season and feel the same way, the numbers could definitely add up - especially when they're offered in convenient and low-cost multi-packs.

As far as using them as food, I imagine that's fairly common as well. As SFD is known to be transmitted through direct contact, I would say feeding infected snakes would be considered (at least by me) high-risk.

Originally Posted by Pork

You know the number one rule in journalism is that after the interviewee leaves, the interviewer never says another word.

That is simply not true. Journalists do not stop writing if an interviewee leaves or says no comment. They gather and write as much relevant information as they can from all sources.
Adults are, except for very limited circumstances that do not apply here, responsible for their own words and behavior. If someone cannot manage to follow the relatively simple rules for posting here, it is they who are responsible if they cannot subsequently post because of a ban.

Originally Posted by DavidBeard

Rian raises some excellent points.

I see no empirical evidence that says the source of the SFD was from Underground. Joe's behavior and subsequent inability to maintain a professional attitude when questioned should speak monumentally if you ask me.

The whole thing reeks of fish, and not the good kind.

Well said, and I agree.
I do feel that all of us including Underground and everyone else, going forward, should be mindful of what Dr. Allender had to say. This thread has been a learning experience for me and I would think for many others. I appreciate those with scientific knowledge that took their time to bring it here.

Originally Posted by DavidBeard

Sweeping the usual procedures of the BOI and how we come to the conclusions we typically do under the guise of some kind of Apocalyptic fear mongering simply won't fly.

It took courage to stand up for the process here. Kudos to you for doing so.

Originally Posted by Pasodama

Having an investigative officer visually inspect UR's facility, & snakes/reptiles, does give some comfort in that nothing was found amiss.
That bit of comfort, however, is limited since no testing, etc., was done.
Still, as I mentioned earlier, it is, at the least end, something (to the positive).

The investigation is a positive step. Testing would be another positive step.
There is so much we don't know about this disease, but if large and well known sellers lead the way by having random testing of animals going out for shipment as Dr. Allender has suggested, I think that proactive behavior will help the entire community.
I think that sort of testing will have positive commercial implications as well if this disease becomes more widespread. Buyers may be more confident. Hopefully the next major breakthrough will establish how this disease is transmitted, until then, buyers will rely on excellent quarantine and careful purchasing.

Originally Posted by Logan256

Speaking for myself, I bought the water snakes because while I've always been curious about them as captives, I'd never actually kept one before. I keep mostly pythons, boas, and a few other select colubrids, so when I saw the CB babies for sale I decided to try my hand at a new (for me) and somewhat underrepresented species. For the experience, you could say. If only 100 people see the ad each season and feel the same way, the numbers could definitely add up - especially when they're offered in convenient and low-cost multi-packs.

As far as using them as food, I imagine that's fairly common as well. As SFD is known to be transmitted through direct contact, I would say feeding infected snakes would be considered (at least by me) high-risk.

Yes, you and Joe I would consider unique in this regard. But the fact that they are offered in these "convenient and low-cost multi-packs" is further evidence that they are being collected from the wild and largely being sold as snake food.

I don't believe anything further can be determined at this time until Logan also has her snake tested. If it tests negative, I would say there's not enough information to draw any conclusions, if it tests positive then I am convinced of the source.

Originally Posted by tim brophy

The one thing that has puzzled me in this entire thread is this. Just who really buys water snakes? In the herpetocultural community they are insignificant. A few keepers have an interest in them, as evidenced by this thread. but not too many. Not enough to account for the number Underground Reptiles sells. So who buys all of these inexpensive and very common snakes? I believe it is folks who keep snakes that are snake-eaters (e.g. king cobras, cribos, etc.). They use them as snake food. Can SFD be transmitted in this manner?

Apparently people who claim to be well-educated conservationalists, lol.

Originally Posted by tim brophy

They use them as snake food. Can SFD be transmitted in this manner?

My impression is that the water snakes have skin issues in general, considering a tiny drop of moisture in their enclosure causes them to get blisters.

If other snakes (that are worth more) could get this disease I guarantee you would have heard of it by now. My opinion is that it will prove to be exclusive to water snakes, especially considering their affinity for contracting skin diseases compared to other species.

Originally Posted by MCMB Reptiles

If other snakes (that are worth more) could get this disease I guarantee you would have heard of it by now. My opinion is that it will prove to be exclusive to water snakes, especially considering their affinity for contracting skin diseases compared to other species.

An opinion obviously formed after pointedly avoiding the pursuit of actual facts on the subject. It's understandable, though. I mean, it's not like someone created a separate thread, with some links in the OP that effectively show someone holding such an opinion to be very uninformed. Wait. Now that I think about it, someone did just that.

Originally Posted by MCMB Reptiles

My impression is that the water snakes have skin issues in general, considering a tiny drop of moisture in their enclosure causes them to get blisters.

If other snakes (that are worth more) could get this disease I guarantee you would have heard of it by now. My opinion is that it will prove to be exclusive to water snakes, especially considering their affinity for contracting skin diseases compared to other species.

It seems that the majority of snakes found displaying this disease are actually ratsnakes, and rattlesnakes. Not Nerodia ssp's or even animals commonly found in bodies of water.Also how does the value of an animal play a role in how the disease transmits to a host? That seems like a crappy thing to say. Care to elaborate on how you came to that conclusion?

Whaqt I don't understand is that if people like the OP have so much experience with Nerodia, why are thye not breeding themselves instead of buying $5 wild caught from brokers?

Originally Posted by DavidBeard

Whaqt I don't understand is that if people like the OP have so much experience with Nerodia, why are thye not breeding themselves instead of buying $5 wild caught from brokers?

Good point David. It is possible that the few people in the US who are producing CBB Nerodia might not be working with the species that the OP and the others who have came forward with infected animals are looking for. Right?