The No-Insults Hybridization Debate

First let me say,
im assuming that this thread is not snake specific
There are a whole lot of people who will try to breed hybrids just becuase they can i feel that is becuase they have a god compex
Then there are animal farms where it happens purely by accident
The novice breeder also plays a part in hybrids
And last but not least GREED plays a strong part in it
Im more into Lizards(Chameleons) then snakes but im thinking about getting into the colorful tree boas and pythons

Im not sure if this can be counted as hybridization
but i have seen in the past and continue to see where some people cross different morphs of Panther Chameleons some with good intentions to begin with and some not and when money comes into play say they are something they are not just to get rid of them!
So then someone with little experience or more money thain brains buys it thinking its a pure locale and contaminates the gene pool

Its just my oppinion that hybids cannot be controlled especialy when money is involved

wow that sucks, i had this big long "hybrids are ok" speech typed out, and then my computer messed up, and now its gone. ill have it back tomorrow and ill have most of you convinced hybrids arent a crime against nature.

Originally Posted by themselves

wow that sucks, i had this big long "hybrids are ok" speech typed out, and then my computer messed up, and now its gone. ill have it back tomorrow and ill have most of you convinced hybrids arent a crime against nature.

Riiiiiiiiiiggggght. Dream on. You think you are going to say anything different than has been said for the past decade or two, by other hybridizers.

Originally Posted by themselves

please people if you dont like what im doing i frankly dont care about your anti hybrid propoganda, so please dont even try to preach your crap to me!)

So practice what you preach.

Originally Posted by themselves

yeah yeah yeah blah blah blah

Funny, that's the same thing I'm hearing (note, not "here", as in your other thread) when I see your posts.

Seriously, when I use to hang out at KS during the early years, I was a vehement anti hybrid person. I (and others) would boycott anyone who worked with them. There use to be many, many pro/con debates, over the years, after many discussions with level headed rational people like Steve Osborne, and a few others, I have become less so, to the point of ALMOST buying one of Steve's variable crosses, last time I spoke to him a couple years back at the San Diego show. It was one of the most pink, peach colored animals I've ever seem, it looked fake, like it had been colored by pastel and neon crayons. I drew the line though, I still will not work with, nor buy, nor condone, the creation of mutts, but I will consider purchases from a few people who do breed them. Their reputations have to be way above board though, like Steve, and Kevin (N.E.R.D.). Because of non above board breeders however, I (and anyone concerned with having "pure" animals) have to be careful when buying even simple things like Corns (because creamsicle lines are getting mixed in), Grey-bands (because people crossed them for "albinos", and advertise them as albino alterna, when they are not) Sinaloans (because people wanted aberrancies and albino, like the Nelson's) all the mexicana lines, because those seem to be the "universal" hybrid makers), and these are the cheapies, it goes on from there; Hog island boas, GTP, etc.
To close, the reason I'm on my soapbox is to explain that it may be possible for someone level headed, and sensible, and respectful, (like mentioned above), to have some sway, or convincing powers, but based on the couple of quotes from your other thread, I'm not thinking you fit that catagory.

Ok, i finally decided to post on this thread.

I am all for hybrids. We have naturally occuring hybrids now, so what is really so wrong about it happening in captivity? Albeit certain species that are interbred would never meet in the wild, but still what is wrong with it? If it did happen and they were found in the wild, it normally warrants a whole seperate specie name and not just looked at as a regular cross.

I also do not think that this has anything to do with a "God complex" either. Wether it be by accident or on purpose, people have proven things once thought impossible. Like nerd's thread, who would have thought you could pair those up and have viable young from it? Not me.

all the mexicana lines, because those seem to be the "universal" hybrid makers),

John,
Can you expand on this statement?
I happen to be a big fan of mexicana subspecies. Really, why do you need hybrids when you have the thayeri kingsnake.
Thank You,
Uncloudy

yes i did say that in my post, because i here it all the same, they are ugly, and have no right to live and all this. go read the whole thing i wrote on my post of the pics in this forum and read that and tell me what you think.

Originally Posted by Uncloudy

John,
Can you expand on this statement?
I happen to be a big fan of mexicana subspecies. Really, why do you need hybrids when you have the thayeri kingsnake.
Thank You,
Uncloudy

Just that mexicana seems to be used a lot by some of the hybridizers, to try all the different crosses. That and the Ruthven's.

Some very good animals have been produced by hybridization, that is for sure...whether or not they should have been is a question though...what, really is the motive? The breeder is not trying to improve the strain at all, like a good dog breeder, but is merely attempting to make an unusual animal...why? The only thing that motivates such people is a complex to stand out from the others...by producing novel animals, and saying "look at what I did, I'm special " ...
It does nothing to improve the genetics of an animal line (which may be devistating in the future, as wc availability wanes)...it pollutes the pool, instead. Many of these animals are then sold at a discount (I don't see the excuse of "I'm not making a profit, so I must be a good breeder" being valid at all ) to the herp community in general...who then goes on to breed them with other strains...so on and so on and so on...what a mess.
Just so you can say that you did something different.
Hope you hybrid breeders are happy...be sure to toot your own horn a lot...seems to be all that you can do.
greg

Originally Posted by cthulhu77

Some very good animals have been produced by hybridization, that is for sure...whether or not they should have been is a question though...what, really is the motive? The breeder is not trying to improve the strain at all, like a good dog breeder, but is merely attempting to make an unusual animal...why? The only thing that motivates such people is a complex to stand out from the others...by producing novel animals, and saying "look at what I did, I'm special " ...
It does nothing to improve the genetics of an animal line (which may be devistating in the future, as wc availability wanes)...it pollutes the pool, instead. Many of these animals are then sold at a discount (I don't see the excuse of "I'm not making a profit, so I must be a good breeder" being valid at all ) to the herp community in general...who then goes on to breed them with other strains...so on and so on and so on...what a mess.
Just so you can say that you did something different.
Hope you hybrid breeders are happy...be sure to toot your own horn a lot...seems to be all that you can do.
greg

Well, I think you're wrong here. I'm not much of a horn tooter, do bang a djembe on occasion, but I have been producing jungle corns since 1990. Perhaps your statement made is such broad generalities was meant to target more specific individuals. I like my hybrids, they are cool, pretty, hardy and yes, unique. I sell them as such and I make them just because I can. I sell out every year so I must not be the only one who appreciates them, but that is a generality and we have already learned the dangers of such speaking, haven't we.

Come to think of it, I don't even have a damn horn, got one to spare? If I REALLY need one that is, which I would think I don't, but hey, maybe I'm wrong. Guess I better check with ALL the other crossbreeders out there. Oh wait, I forgot who I was for a second. I don't give a rat's patootie why anyone else does what they do and I DON'T need any damn horn to proclaim what I do.

Want a cool one of a kind snake? Give me a call and I'll hook you up. LOL

Quote: "Want a cool one of a kind snake? "

Sure...oh wait, you mean a hybrid. Naw, never mind...too bad you don't put so much energy into a project that has some good long term goals...like really getting the mandarin rat snakes going, or perhaps any of the other beautiful colubrids out there.
Hybrids= waste of feeder mice

You? Not toot your own horn? Uhhhh.....please.

As stated before...sure there are some pretty ones out there, not faulting that...it's just that they are a genetic dead end, and a big accident waiting to happen.
greg