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Old 12-27-2018, 07:03 PM   #1
Turtle 77541
Chris Davis

On October 13 2015, Chris Davis and I agreed on a trade. He sent me a formal agreement detailing the trade. He is welcome to post it here if he wants to.

I would send him 1.3 sub adult albino red ear sliders in exchange for two hatchling caramel pinks plus some money (I think it was $500).

Before I shipped the 1.3, Chris asked if I would send an additional 6” female albino red ear and in exchange I would get to pick any two caramel pinks (and even a snow if he were to produce one) from his next clutch to hatch in 2016. Patience was required on my part but I went ahead and agreed to this. I shipped the 1.4 albino red ears to him back in October 2015 and he agreed to send me two caramels then (October 2015) and the other two whenever they hatched in 2016.

I did receive the two in 2015. He shipped these first two in a floppy plastic shipping bag. One looked ok. The other one looked like this:

Attachment 987101
pic 2.png

The hatchling still had a shriveled up yolk sac attached to the plastron and the plastron was concave (sunken in) and the turtle was obviously not feeding.

I complained about this to him. He later posted another hatchling for sale online in 2015:

pic 3.png

When I asked him to exchange this one with the yolk sac for the normal/healthy one he was selling I believe his response was something like: ‘that’s not gonna happen.’

2016 came along and I never received any offer to pick from any hatchlings but I did see him selling hatchlings in 2016:

pick 4.png
pic 5.png
 
Old 12-27-2018, 07:09 PM   #2
Turtle 77541
He never offered any of these to me. He later sent the following email to me at the end of 2016:

pic 6.jpg

At least it was a polite note. But I never had any dialogue with him during 2016 where I told him I wouldn’t mind waiting longer. He took it upon himself to offer these two for sale in 2016 without offering them to me and then sent this email at the end of the year after making his sales.

Apparently 2017 was a bad year for him but this year (2018) he was able to produce some caramels. He and I agreed that he was going to ship two caramels to me and call our transaction complete.

He later added new requirements to our already finalized deal (finalized in 10/13/15).

His new requirement of me is (in his words that he messaged me with a 2am) “You will send id or you will receive nothing.”

Here is the last email I received from him:

pic 7.png

I've never been asked to send my ID to complete transactions. I've had the same phone number and email address for over 15 years. He has my full name, address, phone number, email address and Facebook account. I'm not sure what more he thinks I owe him.
 
Old 12-27-2018, 08:22 PM   #3
calebroad
Pre Written Response

Written 08-31-2018 in anticipation of a BOI complaint.

In my agreement with Jason Williamson, on October 13, 2015, I did agree to the terms as shown in this inquire. At the time, I had full grown caramels, laying viable and fertile clutches, and there seemed to be no end in sight to my steady flow of fertile caramel eggs. I was excited, I was on pace to take over the industry (amateur expectations), and I felt like I was on top of the world. But disaster struck my caramel project, anyone that knows me, understands that this literally knocked me off my feet. Not only did the disease ultimatly kill my mature animals, but also while shuffeling and cleaning the enclosures, others escaped, not to be found again. I was embarrassed beyond belief, I was greif stricken, and then lastly, the money lost was like a final dagger through the heart. The vets never established what the disease was. Just to be clear, I am not insinuating the disease came from Mr. Williamson's turtles, as I have no proof of that. But it sunk my caramel ship, too many dead expensive animals, that I cared for, was just too much. It should be noted that our agreement was bent in favor of Mr. Williamson on purpose, due to the fact that Mr. Williamson was not only taking a fairly small risk that my project might fail, but also, both parties knew up front that patience and time would be required.

I offered to sell off what remained of my other turtle projects to folks in the industry, I chaulked it up to my not being cut out for this particular business, and to this day, I cringe at the thought of that era. Okay, so all the while, I did have this promise to Jason Williamson. Mr. Williamson was checking in with me, he was always having to be re-assured, and it was like a small child that I had promised a toy for. He would nag me, by email, by phone, by messages, facebook, whatever, Just like, yes Jason, Im going to get you the toy I promised you. I believe that under the circumstances, I did maintain a level head trying to re-assure, and make Mr. Williamson feel like his turtle was still coming. If I would say something, like "turtle" and not "turtles", he would quickly correct me, and I would have to reassure him again. It was okay, I made the agreement, and it was okay, I decided that even though he is sour to hear from, I would just deal with it. Mr. Williamson is easily offended, and I have to walk on egg shells. If I say something or suggest something that is not worded correctly, then I will have to spend two hours trying to re-assure Mr. Williamson and explain myself. Mr. Williamson is a nice guy, but for sure, I just cannot re-assure him enough and he hangs on my every word, its a lot of pressure to deal with people like that. I can accept that I dont like to be nagged, thats not Mr. Williamsons fault, its my fault.

Mr. Williamson has a knack for hatching turtles, he is doing good on his own, and is doing better than me. And also, sometimes I did feel better talking to him about my situation, he encouraged me to forge ahead and rebuild, as did most others in the hobby. So, this is what ultimately happened, I could not sell off my remaining animals, I traded some off, and I sold what I could for that project, and I raised up some young ones, I bought many more, some friends in the industry even gave me turtles and supplies trying to help me to pick up the pieces.
Now, here I am in late 2018, and I am finally hatching out some turtles. But just barely, I only have a few, my incubator is full of eggs, and I am trying hard. But also, I am refusing to count my chickens just yet. I mean, despite my efforts, these turtles are not guaranteed to me until they are hatched and feeding. And even then, you have to be very careful as not to lose these hatchlings. My optimism is high, and I believe I will have plenty of turtles to go around. People that owe me turtles have been sending them to me, and people I owe turtles to, have been getting them. I really cant complain.

Things did take an ominous turn, when in early August 2018 (so like within the past 21 days), suddenly Mr. Williamson wants his turtles now, and he means right now. Please read through the screenshots, whereas I repeatedly assured over and over again to send them. But it was like maybe Mr. Williamson has an axe to grind. Nothing I can say, Nothing I can do is pacifying him. We went back and forth. I apologize for the parts where I was rude. Mr. Williamson was provoking me for a rude response, and I gave him some rude responses. He continued on prying and questioning me almost like a wife would question her cheating husband. Its all so overwhelming having to deal with this guy. And he continues saying that he let me sell some hatchlings in 2016, so that I could pay for turtle food and vet bills. And maybe he did, Im not sure, maybe I had some eggs prior to the whipe out, or maybe I sold hatchlings for others to raise money, maybe he can post on here in more details, because it doesnt change the facts about what occurred in any context. And he has all these little details from years gone by, like little details about me, that I dont even know. After looking back, it appears some of his facts and timelines of my life stand correct. I ended up getting the heebie jeebies and blocked him off all of my facebook and social accounts. I mean, why is he observing me like that? Its too close for my comfort. Mr. Williamson should not know what I am doing in my life more that I know what I am doing in my life. So I also started kind of scratching my head, realizing that Ive never seen a picture of this man, and ive told him so much, and he knows me so well. I mean, he is a nice guy for all I know, and I wondered what all have I told this nice guy, what if its sinister (hopefully not) but how could I be so naive.

I decided I want to see an ID, I want to see a face with that name, Mr. Jason Williamson. Especially after he wrote in one of his messages, that he does not wish any harm to "your family". Maybe its perfectly innocent talk, but seeing as to how I know nothing of this man, I just feel like I should have a right to know who he is. I asked Mr. Williamson if he was willing to add some money or trade to the two turtles I was sending him, since mine were het for snow. (this was in early August), and it was like I had asked him for a million dollars. Then I had to backtrack and try to re-assure him again. And I remembered to speak clearly and directly with Mr. Williamson. Dont ever deviate. Mr. Williamson kept after me, pointing out my shortcomings. I refused to deviate off topic, as to avoid another two hours of having to re-assure Mr. Williamson. So he continued his tirade on me, and I attempted to keep the conversations on tract, Mr. Williamson did say he did not like my attitude, and he continued repeating that he had let me sell some hatchlings in 2016 to help offset some other aquatic turtle costs.

Mr. Williamson continued letting me know that he was unhappy with my attitude, and that in 2016 there were hatchlings of which I had sold to help offset costs, with his knowledge. So, even though his grievances are all over the place spanning from 2015 to present, and he doesnt like my attitude, and i was not honoring my deal, and I am a smarta**. I continued to communicate, BOI readers should understand that his grievances did not start until August of 2018. So this all came to fruition in like a 21 day span.
So, what does Mr. Williamson want? Well, I had hatched exactly three turtles. One temp male vis caramel 100% het snow, and two temp female vis caramel 100% het snow. One of the females has a kinked tail. So please read through the texts of which I am posting the screenshots, I started feeling ill having to listen to Mr. Williamson. He is so un-happy with me, and nothing I can do or say will change that. He continued picking apart my words and my life, and at this point, I just want out. As you can see in the texts, I told him I was refusing to go back and forth and that he needs to pick his turtles out. But he is obsessed with his grievances. He wanting me to admit that I was in the wrong, and kept asking me to say things. I finally said that while I do not claim to be perfect, I deny any malice. Mr. Williamson indicated that was start, but wanted me to say more, I found this be weird and I demanded that he pick out the turtles, I shut down the convo, and told him id send the male now, and the famale when she was ready.

Of course, Mr. Williamson was not happy with that idea. He demanded the male caramel plus $500.00 cash and I agreed, and I asked for ship information. He refused, But then he changed his mind and he demanded to see the three turtles I had hatched, so just to get him off my butt, I sent him the picture, he continued calling me a liar, and Mr. Williamson is just very unhappy, he is humiliating to deal with, and I just wanted it over. I relented, and he picked out the perfect male and perfect female he wanted, and I agreed. But then he changed the deal again, saying I had lied about the timing of the animals age. I finally said OMG - please just get it over already. So instead of just taking these beautiful animals, and moving on, Mr. Williamson found it necessary to keep be scolding me, and criticizing me, and shaming me. He continued saying he would let the BOI handle it and ruin my reputation, and was only interested in a continued hostile reprimand of me. Mr. Williamson just wanted me to sit there and wag his finger at me, reproach me, rebuke me, admonish me, and provide me a good ole fashion tongue lashing, instead of simply closing out the transaction and moving on.

Mr. Williamson made the choice to refuse my repeated requests for his shipping address, and for the date of which he wants the turtles shipped. He made the concious decision to ignore me, and instead wanted to continue to demonize me. My good faith offer, was to send him two 100% perfect visual caramels, 100% het for snow (he picked them out). This is easily a $2500 value. I requested this information over and over, even requested the information in between his rants. I told him he was pushing his luck, and to just take these animals and move on. Finally, Mr. Williamson and myself agreed in writing (see screenshots) that by my doing this, all of his grievances were to be settled with no strings attached, and that he would not post to social media, boi, online, or in any fashion whatsoever. We agreed that it was over, and that everyone was made whole once and for all. And Mr. Williamson demanded I let him know once the female hatchling began to feed, and then I would ship the perfect pair to him, on a date of his choosing, that was the final deal, after he had changed it several times, I was hopeful he would stick to this one because it was a good deal. He was required to provide me an ID, a ship address, a ship date, and he would be required to communicate by email, since I was no longer comfortable with him having a front row seat in to my life using social media.

A few days later, as agreed, via email, I informed Mr. Williamson that the female was seen eating (sent an email), and that his turtles were ready to ship. I separated the beautiful caramel pair 100% het snow, and started to prepare for shipment, Mr. Williamson had this amazing deal at the tips of his fingers, so close, it was all but done. I even called SYR and received an approximate cost on shipping to Mr. Williamsons location (he never provided me ship address, but I knew appx). I often work nights, so the turtles were brought to a smaller aquarium, as to minimize the downtime for shipping. And he was getting exactly what he demanded, and we had agreed. It was all settled right?

A few days went by, and it was silent. I thought that surely Mr. Williamson is not going to screw up our deal again, after just putting me through an endless ringer because supposedly I didnt do things as meticulous as he wants me to. Then I get a strange email response that is further scolding me, and Mr. Williamson states he will soon send me a link to a boi post? and that the issue will be handled by the public. But wait? We had already agreed on a full and final solution. So, knowing he has an itch that cannot seemed to be scratched, I have sat down and wrote this response in advance, and then I will copy and paste as soon as he posts his grievances. But here is a little spoiler alert Mr. Williamson, you agreed in writing to take these animals, and let all by gones be by gones, and you taunted and provoked me unsuccessfully for three weeks, and you were ultimately disappointed when I gave you exactly what you were asking for, because obviously you were simply itching for hostilities. In this light, its obvious that I cannon make you satisfied, lord knows I did try, but I cannot make you happy. And sometimes that does happen, where no matter what, someone cannot make someone else happy. Based on my efforts, I believe its obvious that I did try hard to make Mr. Willamson happy, but under the circumstances, I could not. And I am sorry that I could not make Mr. Williamson satisfied or happy. And I already know why he is not happy, for he told me over and over again. Mr. Williamson also stated that he was up to his ears in caramel hatchlings, and no longer really even wanted them. And Mr. Williamson encouraged me to open up my own BOI post against him, of which I responded that I am not playing the child games with him. I believe that Mr. Williamson has surpassed me with his own success and no longer needs these. Obviously.

Based on the written agreement accepted by all parties on August 16, 2018 whereas Mr. Williamson would accept my offer for the two perfect babies het snow, and be considered whole once and for all, but then rejected the offer (after acceptance) many days later by form of hostile email response and breach by way of BOI post, but also because in an earlier agreement, of which I was to send Mr. Williamson the male visual caramel het for snow, along with cash, of which that offer was accepted, but then also later rejected by Mr. Williamson, moreover, I made other offers in good faith, including that Mr. Williamson wait for all these eggs to hatch, then pick out some he likes (also rejected). The original agreement did contain language that suggested if something were to occur that prevented me from making caramels, the agreement was null and void anyways, and that the albino aka (number five) would be returned to Mr. Williamson at my expense through SYR. I did not deem it necessary to invoke this clause, because I ended up buying more caramels, and with patience, Mr. Williamson would have the opportunity to get his turtles and I knew that. However, with my numerous efforts to salvage the agreement, and with my multiple attractive offers to make Mr. Williamson feel whole, I believe I have acted in good faith, and that I have done more that what any reasonable buyer would expect of an honest seller. Furthermore, Mr. Williamson intentionally withheld his shipping address, to make sure that I could not send him the turtles. I believe Mr. Williamson may find pleasure in busting my chops, therefore denying me the opportuntity to remedy his greiveances, He has made a claim of demand, of which I repeadedlty was flexible and offered remedies over and over. Then, Mr. Williamson made sure, 100%, that I was unable to send anything, even telling me the address has changed, and not to send anything. Then, after busting my chops to no end, I finally stopped the pummeling, and he can only communicate by email, so he suddenly cancels the remedy, and says the public will decide. I guess, he will sit back in his chair, and smile in hopes that a mob will pile on me. But in any case, I am posting the proof, that he did have exactly what was demanded, and he rejected and breached his own new amended agreement.

In this light, Mr. Williamson is understood to not be happy. I acknowledge his unhappiness, and I am very sorry I could not satisfy Mr. Williamson. At this juncture, If Mr. Williamson will kindly provide me his shipping address, and a good ship date, I will return the adult albino Number Five back without delay, and at my expense. And again, I apologize for my shortcomings, and for anything that I did or said that was not professional.
 
Old 12-27-2018, 08:40 PM   #4
Turtle 77541
I don’t have time to write a book but I never agreed to your August 2018 term of sending you my ID. You cannot just randomly add new requirements to old agreements and then hide behind the fact that I didn’t fulfill your requirement therefore you owe me nothing.
 
Old 12-27-2018, 08:52 PM   #5
Turtle 77541
Please post any screenshot you have from me during the year 2016 where I said I was ok with you not keeping your word and where I said I don't mind that you sell a few hatchlings in 2016 to pay for hobby related expenses. I may said so after the fact, after your 12/21/2016 I posted above. But you took it upon yourself to sell caramels that year (2016) without regard to your promises. And of course that year (2016) their value was sky high (I think you asked for 4K for one you were selling in 2016). But that is another issue altogether. I could sell a caramel for 1/4 of that now. I'm glad you were able to do well that year and avoid your obligations.
 
Old 12-27-2018, 09:05 PM   #6
Turtle 77541
Chris rote;"I decided I want to see an ID, I want to see a face with that name, Mr. Jason Williamson. Especially after he wrote in one of his messages, that he does not wish any harm to "your family". Maybe its perfectly innocent talk, but seeing as to how I know nothing of this man, I just feel like I should have a right to know who he is."

Chris, post that in context. Post the screenshot if you want. You know very well that I have dreaded posting this to BOI and I have tried over and over to resolve things without having to resort to this. I really don't have the time to follow this thread and reply all day and night! I said I want to resolve this without resorting to posting it on the BOI because I wish no harm to you or your family because they are the one's who would suffer financially (whatever loss that would be for having a harder time making turtle sales) because of YOUR behavior. If it was just YOU who would suffer from having your reputation further lowered I wouldn't have cared as much. With this new demand to send you my ID I came to realize that I cannot deal with a person who just keeps trying to change/negotiate/haggle terms of a 3 year old agreement. You've tried to change the terms more than once and have FULLY taken advantage of the leverage you had from receiving everything up front in 2015 and having me wait on you.
 
Old 12-27-2018, 09:50 PM   #7
Lucille
Quote:
Originally Posted by calebroad View Post
In my agreement with Jason Williamson, on October 13, 2015, I did agree to the terms as shown in this inquire. At the time, I had full grown caramels, laying viable and fertile clutches, and there seemed to be no end in sight to my steady flow of fertile caramel eggs. I was excited, I was on pace to take over the industry (amateur expectations), and I felt like I was on top of the world. But disaster struck my caramel project, anyone that knows me, understands that this literally knocked me off my feet. Not only did the disease ultimatly kill my mature animals, but also while shuffeling and cleaning the enclosures, others escaped, not to be found again. I was embarrassed beyond belief, I was greif stricken, and then lastly, the money lost was like a final dagger through the heart. The vets never established what the disease was. .
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ht=chris+davis




Chris said in his 2016 ad that he had plenty of caramels to choose from, so it seems there was no shortage there.
 
Old 12-27-2018, 11:06 PM   #8
nickolasanastasiou
Chris, your intention is now to break your agreement? An agreement that is long overdue?

It looks like you are attempting to take advantage of market changes and return an albino rather than compensating with what you agreed to earlier in the deal.

The new stipulations you have been trying to impart are likewise not part of the earlier agreement, are they?
 
Old 12-28-2018, 12:09 AM   #9
calebroad
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickolasanastasiou View Post
Chris, your intention is now to break your agreement? An agreement that is long overdue?

It looks like you are attempting to take advantage of market changes and return an albino rather than compensating with what you agreed to earlier in the deal.

The new stipulations you have been trying to impart are likewise not part of the earlier agreement, are they?
Nick,

Great to see you come out of hiding after your multiple failed attempts to have me blocked from various groups, so what now, have your small army of keyboard warriors attack me. Seems like even you would realize your torpedoes failed to sink this ship. And always will.

If your pal wants to work this out like adults, he can choose to take two new caramel het for snow from my 2019 clutches. Im not studdering. He would have had them already if you were not pulling the strings all along.

He’s a nice guy, your not doing him any favors. If he takes my new offer, I’ll send it over in writing. Otherwise, we automatically revert back to the last agreement of which we agreed. Whereas your pal has breached several times, and is only due his original number five turtle. As per contract.

I thought we agreed to bury the hatchet Nick? Or was I “imparting” then also?
 
Old 12-28-2018, 12:16 AM   #10
nickolasanastasiou
Quote:
Originally Posted by calebroad View Post
Nick,

Great to see you come out of hiding after your multiple failed attempts to have me blocked from various groups, so what now, have your small army of keyboard warriors attack me. Seems like even you would realize your torpedoes failed to sink this ship. And always will.

If your pal wants to work this out like adults, he can choose to take two new caramel het for snow from my 2019 clutches. Im not studdering. He would have had them already if you were not pulling the strings all along.

He’s a nice guy, your not doing him any favors. If he takes my new offer, I’ll send it over in writing. Otherwise, we automatically revert back to the last agreement of which we agreed. Whereas your pal has breached several times, and is only due his original number five turtle. As per contract.

I thought we agreed to bury the hatchet Nick? Or was I “imparting” then also?
I do not have an army of any sort.

What is the exact wording of the contract? Go ahead and post it.
 

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