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Old 05-05-2008, 12:39 AM   #21
varnyard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Haley
Proof Bobby? Proof? What exactly would you want ME to provide proof of? I asked questions and pointed out unknowns, they are inherently the opposite of proof. You are the one who has made statements that you are unable or unwilling to even evidence, much less prove conclusively. As to knowing nothing about it... Well, I do not keep tegus personally, haven't in years and never produced any. I do understand reptile biology though, apparantly a damn sight better than you do given your inability to comprehend even the basic concepts which have been presented to you as questions. I'm not "trolling because I don't like you" I don't know you and have no opinion about you as an individual- I've got very strong opinions about truthful representation of animals though and opened this thread because another had piqued my awareness of your faults in that department.
You have nothing but "YOUR" opinion, and you are welcome to have one. But that does not mean I am going to agree with you, or even think you are close to being worthy of my time. I have an opinion too, and it is very clear in my post above. Now if you were someone that knew anything at all about tegus, that might be a different matter. But as it stands now you know nothing at all except your so called opinion without one ounce of proof to back your claims. Is that trolling? Well thats not hard to figure out.

I have four adults and six yearlings, so tell me how I have four Giant adults if it is not genetic? You claim to be so educated, explain that one, are all four flukes? are the Giant eggs flukes too? Your opinion is very silly at best.
 
Old 05-05-2008, 12:55 AM   #22
Seamus Haley
Quote:
Originally Posted by varnyard
You have nothing but "YOUR" opinion, and you are welcome to have one. But that does not mean I am going to agree with you, or even think you are close to being worthy of my time. I have an opinion too, and it is very clear in my post above. Now if you were someone that knew anything at all about tegus, that might be a different matter. But as it stands now you know nothing at all except your so called opinion without one ounce of proof to back your claims. Is that trolling? Well thats not hard to figure out.

I have four adults and six yearlings, so tell me how I have four Giant adults if it is not genetic? You claim to be so educated, explain that one, are all four flukes? are the Giant eggs flukes too? Your opinion is very silly at best.
That's... kinda exactly it actually, yes. I'd really just like you to acknowledge the differences between "is" "possibly" and "probably"

Four is a statistically miniscule number and all four were purchased by you as a group, with unknown origins. It's possible that their size is a genetic absolute, that they are the product of a micropopulation that has developed a larger size in response to localized pressures. It's possible that they were fed a diet that dramatically increased their growth and that, while the physiological potential is inherent in argentine tegus, their offspring are unlikely to express the same trait when denied the same foods at the same ages. If it is a genetic predisposition, you have no knowledge of the method of genetic transmission; is it simply a tendency, is it an absolute, is it a recessive trait, a dominant one? It's possible that the individuals you have purchased are much much older than you have been led to believe and that, with excessive age (such as is uncommon in wild populations or under most captive conditions) comes exceptional size (you stated once when discussing the subject that tegus completely stop growing after reaching maturity, this is, as you know, inaccurate, they merely slow dramatically). And these are just the simple possibilities- some are more probably than others, but none are impossible and, more importantly, none can be disproven as the root explaination for the size of the four adults since nobody has doccumented their history.

Since all these possible explainations exist, none of them can be called "the truth" and all should be acknowledged as potentially having validity until disproved. By that same token, no label should be applied or firm conclusions should be drawn because the information simply doesn't exist to back up one claim more substantially than any other.

You don't really have an opinion about the animals Bobby, you have a desire. You desire to be the source of an inheritable and popular genetic trait and you seemingly refuse to accept that the project, while extremely hopeful and extremely interesting, simply isn't at that conclusive stage yet.
 
Old 05-05-2008, 01:02 AM   #23
Seamus Haley
Oh, and as to the "giant eggs" there's a pretty simple explaination for that as well. Tegus don't practice any guarding behaviors beyond nest site selection, when a female has the energy reserves for egg production one or two things usually happens as a result; bigger eggs or more numerous eggs. Sometimes both. Girl with a wide pelvis getting fed well by a guy who cares about keeping his animals in peak condition? Of course she's going to have big eggs and they're going to result in big hatchlings, especially under the ideal incubation conditions you'll be providing given all that energy rich high quality yolk. That doesn't automatically mean that the hatchlings will attain an exceptional adult size. It's *possible* but not *guaranteed*
 
Old 05-05-2008, 01:08 AM   #24
shrap
Seamus,

Seriously man, you sound like someone who just has it out for Bobby. Bobby has compiled a vast amount of research on these animals and has every right to believe what he is saying.

I have seen the evidence and feel Bobby is correct. I think any unbiased person does too. Even Bert acknowledges that these are most likely different from the normal Argentine Black and Whites. These animals are MUCH larger. Their eggs are MUCH larger. Their offspring at hatching are MUCH larger. At yearling stage they are MUCH larger. As adults they are Much larger. Etc. Etc.

While I agree nothing is 100% conclusive yet, the evidence compiled to this point is overwhelming to anyone who is unbiased.
 
Old 05-05-2008, 01:13 AM   #25
varnyard
You can sum up what you said in one word, "trolling".

However, just to set the record straight for people like you that know nothing about tegus. Tegus do not keep growing with age after three years old. You might not know this but tegus are not large constrictors that grow throughout their life, they are fully grown at three years old. So your big bang thoughts of the higher education of knowing something is once again proof of knowing nothing.

And I will add, your woulda, coulda, shoulda is nothing more then hog wash.

So Seamus, at what age are tegus "full grown"? You claim to be the expert in your above post on tegus growing more, so do tell? And do back it up with proof.
 
Old 05-05-2008, 01:19 AM   #26
Seamus Haley
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrap
Seamus,

Seriously man, you sound like someone who just has it out for Bobby. Bobby has compiled a vast amount of research on these animals and has every right to believe what he is saying.

I have seen the evidence and feel Bobby is correct. I think any unbiased person does too. Even Bert acknowledges that these are most likely different from the normal Argentine Black and Whites. These animals are MUCH larger. Their eggs are MUCH larger. Their offspring at hatching are MUCH larger. At yearling stage they are MUCH larger. As adults they are Much larger. Etc. Etc.

While I agree nothing is 100% conclusive yet, the evidence compiled to this point is overwhelming to anyone who is unbiased.
He hasn't really presented a vast amount of anything. If it exists, I'd really like to see it.

"Most likely" is a phrase that defines probability while leaving some room for alternatives.

Larger adults would produce larger eggs that produce larger hatchlings. There's a gap, and I believe it's a signifigant one, in the known growth rates of this... I'm going to call it a "line" at the moment, for lack of a more precise term. The gap encompasses the time during which the animals will attain their near maximum size- but he has repeatedly described the offspring in a manner that indicates that size is an absolute, when it is an unknown. That, along with many of the attitudes and incomplete arguments he has presented in defense of his position, have left me skeptical of much of his sales pitch. I don't have it in for Bobby personally at all, not even remotely- I just want precision and accuracy when it comes to describing animals, especially those which are apparantly divergent from that which would be considered phenotypically normal.
 
Old 05-05-2008, 01:25 AM   #27
Seamus Haley
Quote:
Originally Posted by varnyard
You can sum up what you said in one word, "trolling".

However, just to set the record straight for people like you that know nothing about tegus. Tegus do not keep growing with age after three years old. You might not know this but tegus are not large constrictors that grow throughout their life, they are fully grown at three years old. So your big bang thoughts of the higher education of knowing something is once again proof of knowing nothing.

And I will add, your woulda, coulda, shoulda is nothing more then hog wash.

So Seamus, at what age are tegus "full grown"? You claim to be the expert in your above post on tegus growing more, so do tell? And do back it up with proof.
And you can sum up all of your counterpoints with one word as well- evasion.

A growth rate of small fractions of an inch a year is still a growth rate. You cannot possibly be contending that tegus hatch, grow substantially for 94,608,000 seconds and then never become one cell width longer from snout to tail tip, can you? Sounds absurd when phrased like that, doesn't it? And I'm not really accusing you of presenting that as being the core of your contention- I really wish you'd extend me the same courtesy and just discuss the subject like a reasonable adult.
 
Old 05-05-2008, 01:50 AM   #28
varnyard


Anyone that knows anything about tegus knows that reds get larger than normal Argentine black and whites. This is a picture of a red and a Giant that are within two week of age:




Normals on the right, Giants on the left:



No one has tegus like this, if so show them to me, and they cannot be my stock:



I am sorry Seamus, but you are not looking at the facts at all, you are way too busy with your silly ploy. As for you accusing me, don't worry about that one, what you say and think means little to me or anyone else that really matters. I have build one hell of a reputation for being one of the most honest in this business, nothing you can ever say or do will even come remotely close to changing that.
 
Old 05-05-2008, 02:00 AM   #29
shrap
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Haley
....have left me skeptical of much of his sales pitch.
Well right there is one of your problems, Seamus. This aint a sales pitch. Booby aint about sales pitches at all. If you knew him in the slightest you would know that. Instead you make ASSumptions.....

Bobby is all about the animals. It aint about money for him. And what you call a sales pitch, is actually just his excitement and enthusiasm about a project that he knows is special.

You certainly have a right to your opinion. But I have been Bobbys ear since this project started and I can honestly say that you are lacking a lot of information. Not just about these animals, but who Bobby is as a person.
 
Old 05-06-2008, 10:05 PM   #30
dorton
Seamus you can say whatever you want, but every one of Bobby's Chacoans/Extreme Giants/Poodles or whatever he wants to call them(a name is just a name) can easily be distinguished, by simply setting it beside a normal b/w even by someone who knows nothing of tegus. This is true all the way from egg to adulthood. Do you agree??

Yes or No??? Thats all I want to hear.
 

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