Allen Both - Reptile Kingdom

Bryan

I have done bussiness with Allen for several years, sometimes he is a little slow to pay but always seems to come thru. He is a stand up guy but like most is probably struggling to stay afloat in this crappy economy. Keep an open dialog of communication and I am sure he will pay you.. If he cant and you want your product back I am sure he would send it.

Remember folks, A lot of people read the comments on this forum, it very easy to cripple a small business.. Which means poor sales and one less outlet to sell your product.

Thanks for listening
Dan
Emerald Coast Exotics

Not paying small time breeders can also cripple their business as well, so if you can't afford to not get paid then you should obviously avoid this person. He did eventually pay me but a couple of months later. Some people, like the person who planned their christmas around their deal , can't afford to wait around and eventually get paid. So I definitely hope people take caution when dealing with him, and there are plenty of other people out there who can afford to pay for the reptiles they request as I haven't had has much trouble getting paid as I did with him and this was our first and only transaction. I was extremely patient and workable with the deal and all he had to do was tell the truth that he didn't have my money and we could've worked it out. Instead, he lied about sending a check, then didn't paypal me cause he was out of town, then told me he spent my money in hopes of making more at a show but had a horrible show and no longer had my money. Point is, this guy will obviously say anything and who knows what the truth really is and should be avoided unless he has cash in hand.

All Al had to do was tell me straight up that he didn't have the $$$
and tell me it would be quite a while before I got paid. Instead I had
a battle with FedEx for giving my shipment to the US Post Office to
deliver and they failed to collect the C.O.D. Al sent me a bad check.
He knew he had no funds in that account. I have a guy who owes me
$3,000 since August but he did me a favor by taking specimens that don't move
to easily. We made a deal from the start and he pays me when he can.
I had over 50 e-mails to Al and just got jerked around until I found out
that all along he was buying from a dealer in FL who I used to work for.
Last I heard he's got someone picking animals for him. So; if you're owed
$$$ he's using your dough to stay afloat. I can't put it any plainer and I
hate breaking the guys chops but it's not right. What do you say after
you say your sorry. I've seen this before....guys doing everything they
can to hold on to a business. The best thing for the guys health and family
is to go to work for someone....at least until he gets straightened out.
It's not going to get any better....this economy is still heading south.
If gasoline goes to $5.00 per gallon there won't be too much road collecting
and fewer herps available. I don't think people are going to pay for reptiles
when food has increased by maybe 15 to 20%.

Best of Luck to All of you including Al.

Ed Nagelmeyer

I don't know the OP or the bad guy, and I don't want to cast stones, but it seems to me the problem basically boils down to the original agreement not having a timeline. I give some stuff to different shops nearby and basically let them have it on consignment, which is exactly what the OP did when he did not specify a timeline and get it in writing of some sort, preferably with a notary seal affixed. By posting a BOI bad guy thread, the chance of those animals selling decreases. In this economy, which is only going to get worse BTW, consignment is not such a bad thing. It is almost like expanding your shop without having to pay the overhead. You also don't have to feed or take care of the animals any more either. The main thing you eat is the opportunity costs, but if you have not received any orders for such animals, then you have not lost that either. That is the story for the OP.
Now for the bad guy: He seems to be relying on partial truth, which is not truth at all, in all or most of his dealings. He needs to realize other people like money too, and can spend it just as well, if not better, than he can. I know I like money, and I won't be surprised if 100% of the people reading this like money as well. Money = power. Power to make decisions rather than being told what to do. For every dollar he made since the time he accepted those animals, he should have sent at least half of it to the people he owed money to. Otherwise, he is a thief, plain and simple.
So what to do. The simple thing is the OP gave those animals away in hopes someone else could do what he said he would do for him. When you let anyone have something that is yours with only a verbal agreement, then you give them the power to make the decisions for you. I have about the same amount owed to me by various people (~$1350), it was cold-hard cash i gave them to help them out in hard times, and they all agreed to pay me ASAP, but with no written contract, only one agreed to pay by the end of that month, and two months later he wrote a check to me that bounced, and I know asking them to pay is going to go over like a pregnant nun, so I have written that debt off, and will be surprised if I ever see it. The bright side is it only cost me that much to give all three of those people an excellent reason why I can never trust them with money again. I am still cordial and polite to them, because in the long run, people matter more than money, but the only way they will ever get hold of a single penny of mine in the future is if they pay me back what they owe me. It really is as simple as that. Posting BOI bad guy threads like this is really a waste of time, IMHO, and the proof of that is the fact this thread had to happen at all when there were already numerous warnings about this deadbeat. One more is not going to make a big difference. I would just tell the guy pay me whenever you can, tell him you value him more than money, and leave it at that. Oh, and next time don't front anything you think you can sell in the next several months. There's my $0.02, and you can take it or leave it. Good day.

Great post .Basically couldn't be said any better .

Originally Posted by akonitony

I don't know the OP or the bad guy, and I don't want to cast stones, but it seems to me the problem basically boils down to the original agreement not having a timeline. I give some stuff to different shops nearby and basically let them have it on consignment, which is exactly what the OP did when he did not specify a timeline and get it in writing of some sort, preferably with a notary seal affixed.

Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the ideas you put out there, but I have to disagree with this about as much as I can disagree with anything.

If you do not specifically state this is a consignment type transaction, or specify a payment plan, then payment in full is to be expected when goods or services are transferred.

Immediate exchange is the default, consignment or an account is the exception.

I do agree posting a bg thread in this type of situation is like , since you make it harder for Allen to move your stuff and pay you, but on the other hand what other recourse short of legal proceedings does the OP have?

Allen's apparent business model is a very liquid one, where merchandise and money fly in and out at an incredible pace. I bet if everything goes well that is poetry in motion...but it appears that things are not working so well...

Anthony,
While in principal I would agree with your assessment, the reason I allowed this problem to happen to me was based upon a previous business relationship. Allen and I had done business quite a few times in the past and each of those transactions proved smooth. I was basing this decision on the (incorrect) belief that he valued my business as much as I valued his.
I have learned my lesson regarding Allen, and the intent of this post was to warn everyone again of shipping anything to him without advance payment. I understand that there are already several posts addressing this, but power also comes from information. The more data from various sources that is available, the better. Prospective sellers will now have another reason to question whether to ship to Allen, regardless of whatever relationship they may have had with him in the past.
I'm hoping he resolves this issue soon, but I'm also not basing any other financial decisions on it. Like you, I value relationships more than money, but I also don't want another seller that may not be able to afford it to be in this situation. I didn't want to post the original post, but I felt a bit of responsibility to let the herping community know what kind of person they may be choosing to deal with. Having said that, I would still continue to do business with him should he choose to remedy the problem. The only change will be that I will require payment prior to shipping.
Also, I will have to agree with Drew. Basing my perception on our past transactions and expecting payment as soon as the animals arrived is not out of line. I had a business history with Allen and a payment history that laid out how I would have expected all future transactions to go. A gentlemen's agreement is still an honorable thing for many people in this business.

I don't know where anthony has been selling his animals but its an understood fact that when you ship the reptiles to a wholesaler they are to immediately send out payment after recieving and inspecting the animals unless some other agreement has been reached. Who the hell writes contracts in this business, the answer is no one. Having an email with terms stated is enough to pursue your money in small claims court. This industry runs on good faith and reputation, so posting in this forum is not a waste of time to let others know to avoid this person. Some people, like me, don't like to be owed money especially when I don't have to. Consignment is good and I do that as well but only for 1 or 2 animals, not over a thousand dollars worth of animals.

Mine was supposed to be a C.O.D.
However; FedEx gave the shipment to the US Post Office for delivery.
They failed to collect the C.O.D. Al send me a check in a few days but
the check was bad. It took a year to collect about $1,200.

Hey; I no longer have an axe to grind in this. I was just posting the
problem. I have no more time for it. I have to let go of it.
That's good advice.....I give you animals -- You give me money---NOW.

Happy New Year.

Ed Naglemeyer

Update on my situation: Allen just sent me another $300, which brings him pretty close to being able to pay the rest off ($650 paid out of $741.40). I hope to see this situation resolved soon.

Jonathan