Snakes at Sunset - Michael Barrera - Sick Animals - Terrible Condition

Originally Posted by Lucille

By the way, there is in fact controversy among expert keepers on the use of sand as a substrate.

Which I ship mostly due to impaction. A desert iguana does not eat live food so eating sand is not really of concern.

They have extensive experience shipping lizards and WC animals(also receiving) and fully expect them to know what effects there might be on my end. I seeked them for that information and went off what they gave me. I don't think these are general common sense things like the other thread you are referring to. That was common sense like you shouldn't keep the animal in a box all day.

More intensive care like lighting/enclosure size/etc. I expect the buyer to know.

Originally Posted by MrTPlush

I wanted the iguana to be returned back to them because they were so sure it was healthy. I was not happy with the animal I received and the fact it had impossible to miss mites on it(if one was examining it before shipping) showed they were careless before shipping the animal and very well could have missed other visual signs it was unhealthy.

Actually it can be very easy to miss the chiggers on a lizard without a through search of the lizard particularly if there are only a few. These mites seek out the thinnest skin areas which on a desert iguana tends to be in the pockets formed by the limbs close to the body and in the very tight folds around the head. Unlike mites in the Ophionyssus genus, these are immature chiggers and aren't going to go on walkabouts for egg laying so despite them being bright red, it can actually make them more difficult to find.

Originally Posted by MrTPlush

If you want to blame me for the animal dying you can go ahead and point the finger at Snakes at Sunset too.

Actually we can't... you had the lizard in your possession and once you determined it was sick, the care was on you regardless of any future resolution for your unhappiness. You had the final option for proper emergency supportive therapy and you made the choice to not seek it letting the animal suffer for several days.
Whether or not you think this is warranted it doesn't mean that you get to absolve yourself of the decision to not seek medical care.

some comments

Ed

Originally Posted by MrTPlush

I also don't have experience with WC animals so I wasn't concerned early on when it seems I probably should have been.

I don't either but based on reading/research here and other forums, WC animals usually are not treated for internal parasites, and they may or may not be treated for external parasites before being sold depending on the vendor. Problems due to stress and dehydration are also common.

So, there's an excellent chance that you're buying a vet bill if you purchase a WC animal, which is why they're so cheap compared to a CBB or even a long-term captive critter.

Originally Posted by MrTPlush

Which I ship mostly due to impaction. A desert iguana does not eat live food so eating sand is not really of concern.

This is completely false. The live food component of their normal diet has been well established for more than 50 years (easily 1970)... Now if your choosing to not feed them live prey that is on you but live food is part of their normal diet. So as an argument that sand it safe because they don't eat live food, it is an unsupported argument.

Originally Posted by MrTPlush

They have extensive experience shipping lizards and WC animals(also receiving) and fully expect them to know what effects there might be on my end.

This I think is the problem here... the problem with any number of wild caught taxa is that they tend to avoid showing symptoms of ill health until it has become critical. This is well established in the peer reviewed literature as it impacts things like rates of predation and even mate choice. It is also a well known issue in captive husbandry known as "failure to thrive" (aka malaadaption syndrome) which is often attributed to incorrect diet but can also be due to stress. This is in part some of the things that could have been discovered with a vet visit. To a great extent this is why there is always a gamble on wild caught stuff as you can't know if there is more going wrong inside the animal until it is tested for or the animal reaches the point it cannot hide the symptoms.

some comments

Ed

To be honest, the major problem here sounds more like an issue with your inexperience with field collected animals then with Snakes at Sunset. I don't have a lot of experience with WC but I do know that purchasing one is a gamble. The seller can only guarantee so much not knowing the animal's origins or what it has been exposed to which is why all the animals I acquire are exclusively captive bred. If that animal was unfit to be sold, then I am not excusing them from shipping a sick animal (as mentioned I do not know what condition WC animals typically come in or what is expected by the buyer/seller in that regards). HOWEVER, it is also not their job to hold your hand because you are inexperienced with these types of animals especially if you were well informed it was WC. Any good keeper/pet owner should know that a sick animal needs to go to the vet. Period. The fact that I don't see any evidence of that is inexcusable. Hash out your issues with the seller afterward, make them pay for the vet bill, or come to an agreement on some other kind of reimbursement but don't let the animal suffer and die because you didn't like the condition it came in or because they didn't explicitly tell you to bring it there. They are not vets and even a vet can't give you a proper diagnosis over the phone.

Lesson learned. As indicated earlier, this poor lizard was doomed from the get go. I would take whatever refund is offered and move on. Its a no win situation when they will not obligate themselves to pay for the shipping back.
It really does not matter because these business work on options that will always offer at least 50% less then what you paid. Take the 40 if its offered.

Consider yourself fortunate with that kind of loss. Find a more reputable supplier. It certainly would have been a more honorable approach to take care of it but then this operation has a bad history . You would think they would once in a while do the right thing. Apparently not !

I have contacted multiple places listing desert iguanas on their website and the ones that have replied confirming they do treat for external and internal parasites. Just throwing that out there.

And no live food IS NOT a component of their necessary diet. There is a lot out there saying an adult desert iguana should definitely not have any live food in their diet.

The chiggers were very obvious.

Thanks for your opinions though.

Originally Posted by MrTPlush

I have contacted multiple places listing desert iguanas on their website and the ones that have replied confirming they do treat for external and internal parasites. Just throwing that out there.

And no live food IS NOT a component of their necessary diet. There is a lot out there saying an adult desert iguana should definitely not have any live food in their diet.

The chiggers were very obvious.

Thanks for your opinions though.

You didn't buy from the other places, probably because Snakes at Sunset was cheaper right? If the other places treated for external/internal parasites, why didn't you buy from them? That's like me getting mad that McDonalds doesn't use local beef because the restaurant down the road does.

Also, I think Ed has forgotten more info than most people online have obtained in their lifetime (ie. When Ed makes a statement, even as an "opinion", I personally take it very seriously as he is not the type to state things he's not confident of. You could learn a lot for future purchases if you don't burn that bridge and you take his advice to heart).

One of the things that makes or breaks an argument about bad service etc on fauna is the honesty put out there by the person making the argument(s) as well as the evidence provided by both parties. If one party is insisting on incorrect information it can bring speculation about the rest of their claim.

Originally Posted by MrTPlush

And no live food IS NOT a component of their necessary diet. There is a lot out there saying an adult desert iguana should definitely not have any live food in their diet.

I suggest that you consult some accurate references on this topic... see for example A field guide to western reptiles and amphibians. Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 2003. which specifically lists insects, faecal material (their own) and carrion in addition to plant matter.

Also see for a second example Minnich, John E., and Vaughan H. Shoemaker. "Diet, behavior and water turnover in the desert iguana, Dipsosaurus dorsalis." American Midland Naturalist (1970): 496-509.

You have used a vague term here to try and get out of your insistence on relying on bad information and that is "necessary nutrition". Do you have any specific peer reviewed analysis of that nutrition? Did it take into any requirement for behavioral stimulation?? Without that analysis how can you claim it is or isn't "necessary"?

some comments

Ed

Originally Posted by MrTPlush

I have contacted multiple places listing desert iguanas on their website and the ones that have replied confirming they do treat for external and internal parasites. Just throwing that out there.
.

How about a list of those you contacted and the list of who they said they treat all of them.... instead of a claim that cannot be substantiated...?

some comments

Ed