"Beyond Good and Evil"

Those that like philosophy might enjoy reading Nietzsche’s book “Beyond Good and Evil”. In that classic piece the author states something that goes like this: “When you deal daily with monsters you have to be careful not to become a monster yourself”, immediately followed by “If you look to long into the abyss, the abyss looks back into you”. This is the danger faced by those that don’t so some serious introspection of their attitudes every now and then. Regrettably this attitude has been and is currently being reinforced. How? through karma. Karma is a well intentioned idea but regrettably misused by a lot of people. High karma means high impact among peers and not necessarily good guy. Regrettably lots of folks love drama and will reward ruthless behavior. The problem with ruthless behavior is that for it to maintain its effectiveness the poster has to escalate it constantly. Similarly he/she also has to spread karma around among those that like his/her posts. Thus it is essential for the poster to know who rewarded him/her. In short the system rates individuals according to popularity which doesn’t necessarily mean good guys. We all know popularity can go either way. But in general and due to human nature people like ruthless, outrageous posters who shake them to their very core. Karma is about power, the more you have the more powerful individuals with low self esteem feel. Of course, they are “valued” above their peers. People can rob lots of things, snakes, but also human respect and dignity. When you rob a person of the latter there’s no incentive for them to improve. If redemption is impossible what do they have to lose? Why attempt to improve if nothing they do is good enough? Just remember “When you deal daily with monsters you have to be careful not to become a monster yourself”, and If you look to long into the abyss, the abyss looks back into you”. Just some ramblings from an old poster, happy karma everyone!

Originally Posted by The BoidSmith

But in general and due to human nature people like ruthless, outrageous posters who shake them to their very core.

Dan, I respectfully question your 'givens'. I like to think that many of my posts are quiet and thoughtful. I don't go around shaking cores. I think that this is a unique board with some strong individuals here, no doubt about that; but I think that people reward those who take the time to think through issues and say something about those issues that makes sense. Just my perspective, you are entitled to yours.

Originally Posted by The BoidSmith

Those that like philosophy might enjoy reading Nietzsche’s book “Beyond Good and Evil”. In that classic piece the author states something that goes like this: “When you deal daily with monsters you have to be careful not to become a monster yourself”, immediately followed by “If you look to long into the abyss, the abyss looks back into you”. This is the danger faced by those that don’t so some serious introspection of their attitudes every now and then. Regrettably this attitude has been and is currently being reinforced. How? through karma. Karma is a well intentioned idea but regrettably misused by a lot of people. High karma means high impact among peers and not necessarily good guy. Regrettably lots of folks love drama and will reward ruthless behavior. The problem with ruthless behavior is that for it to maintain its effectiveness the poster has to escalate it constantly. Similarly he/she also has to spread karma around among those that like his/her posts. Thus it is essential for the poster to know who rewarded him/her. In short the system rates individuals according to popularity which doesn’t necessarily mean good guys. We all know popularity can go either way. But in general and due to human nature people like ruthless, outrageous posters who shake them to their very core. Karma is about power, the more you have the more powerful individuals with low self esteem feel. Of course, they are “valued” above their peers. People can rob lots of things, snakes, but also human respect and dignity. When you rob a person of the latter there’s no incentive for them to improve. If redemption is impossible what do they have to lose? Why attempt to improve if nothing they do is good enough? Just remember “When you deal daily with monsters you have to be careful not to become a monster yourself”, and If you look to long into the abyss, the abyss looks back into you”. Just some ramblings from an old poster, happy karma everyone!

Interesting post. I suppose it could be interperated in several ways.

One might wonder if your life is in order.

If redemption is impossible what do they have to lose?

Some believe that nothing is impossible, so if you give up, you have defeated yourself. I believe redemption is always possible, but some may have to work at it harder than others. I think everyone will agree, life isn't fare.

Why attempt to improve if nothing they do is good enough?

Who sets the standards? Do you set your standards, or do you let someone set those standards for you? If you set your own standards then it's you who decides what is or isn't good enough. If someone else is setting the standards, and they are too high, then you have to ask why. If they are unreachable, then you move on.

Regrettably this attitude has been and is currently being reinforced. How? through karma. Karma is a well intentioned idea but regrettably misused by a lot of people. High karma means high impact among peers and not necessarily good guy. Regrettably lots of folks love drama and will reward ruthless behavior. The problem with ruthless behavior is that for it to maintain its effectiveness the poster has to escalate it constantly. Similarly he/she also has to spread karma around among those that like his/her posts. Thus it is essential for the poster to know who rewarded him/her. In short the system rates individuals according to popularity which doesn’t necessarily mean good guys. We all know popularity can go either way. But in general and due to human nature people like ruthless, outrageous posters who shake them to their very core. Karma is about power, the more you have the more powerful individuals with low self esteem feel. Of course, they are “valued” above their peers.

Anything can be misused, and karma is no exception. Who decides what is or isn't abuse? You may view something as abusive, and someone else might see it as something that should be rewarded. Who's right, and who's wrong? If I give someone karma for a post, then I'm right, and on the other hand, if you don't give that same post karma, then you are right. You are assuming that if Jane Doe gives me karma, that I'm going to turn around and give her karma right back. That's not true, I have given out karma to people, and never gotten karma back from them, and I have gotten karma from people, and have not given it back to them. So to say that karma is based on the buddy system, is just false.

Drama is one of the things that makes life interesting. Every single person has some kind of drama in their life, in one form or another, some more then others. Look at how many people watch day time soap operas. Why do you mix ruthlessness and drama together? You can have one without the other. Sometimes people need to be shaken to their core, especially if their is a lot at stake. Depending on what it is, it could be costly if things go bad, and have a bad affect on other people lives. If you want to mess with your own life, go right ahead, but be careful if you mess with others. I don't know about others, but I don't make post's with the intentions of receiving karma, but if I do get karma, then I am thankful for it. I don't revolve around it, and it doesn't revolve around me.

“When you deal daily with monsters you have to be careful not to become a monster yourself”

Very true. And it can be a thin line to walk as well. It usually happens gradually, so it's not always easy to realise that you have become what you always set out to conquer. Eventually though, you will fall.

and If you look to long into the abyss, the abyss looks back into you”

I think for that to happen, you would have to be one lonely person.

This was fun. What's next?

Brian,

Similar with the reputation points of the past Karma does not exist but in the mind of those who seek it, it is just a system to rank individuals above others. Most people want to equate it with good guys which is a phalacy. High karma = popular replies; nothing more, nothing less, not good guys. An individual that wants to degrade another one just to make him/her feel more powerful is not a good person. It is just a person needing approval from the rest.

Who sets the standards? Do you set your standards, or do you let someone set those standards for you? If you set your own standards then it's you who decides what is or isn't good enough. If someone else is setting the standards, and they are too high, then you have to ask why. If they are unreachable, then you move on.

This is an interesting paragraph. Maybe you have noticed that several of the individuals with high karma are always complaining why so and so gave them bad karma. Guess why? They permanently monitor who agrees or not with what they say, and will post accordingly. They don't really speak their mind, they just look for rewards on popular posts. Please note this is not an attack on your person as you mentioned that you check your karma to see who gave you what.

Whats's next?

This is fun!

First, I agree with Lucille and Brian... BUT you do give an interesting perspective.

So, should we all stay in the "tit" section and just give Karma to those stupid , fun-loving, adventureous,... etc (take your pick) enough to be swayed by peer pressure? This is another negative aspect of the Karma system, people that have contributed nothing of note (in my opinion) having high karma... let's just go into those sections and see who resides in them most often and how high their Karma is and the type of posts attributed to them?

There is a buddy system, but imo (again) it usually exists among those that brought their friends in and they give it to each other for anything and everything including if someone complains about getting BK.

My experience is: BK is just a means to show either your support or disagreement of a post without having to post and possibly take the subject off topic. It's also a way to show someone that (in your opinion) their post lacks logical merit or is personally abusive...etc... (whatever your reasons may be).

I don't see Karma as a POPULARITY gauge....But that's just me. I see it as a feedback gauge on whether or not our posts are read and understood by those whom we consider peers, whether they think our arguments are logical and concisely laid out.

Originally Posted by The BoidSmith

Brian,

Similar with the reputation points of the past Karma does not exist but in the mind of those who seek it, it is just a system to rank individuals above others. Most people want to equate it with good guys which is a phalacy. High karma = popular replies; nothing more, nothing less, not good guys. An individual that wants to degrade another one just to make him/her feel more powerful is not a good person. It is just a person needing approval from the rest.



This is an interesting paragraph. Maybe you have noticed that several of the individuals with high karma are always complaining why so and so gave them bad karma. Guess why? They permanently monitor who agrees or not with what they say, and will post accordingly. They don't really speak their mind, they just look for rewards on popular posts. Please note this is not an attack on your person as you mentioned that you check your karma to see who gave you what.

Whats's next?

Anything that can be abused WILL be abused by human beings. It's not the system nor the tools that are the problem, it's some sort of defect in human nature that is the problem. Why do you think we have rules and moderators to enforce them? A whole section of code dedicated to infractions? Hell, for that matter, why do we have virus programs on our computers and firewalls on servers?

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus

This is fun!

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus

:I don't see Karma as a POPULARITY gauge....But that's just me. I see it as a feedback gauge on whether or not our posts are read and understood by those whom we consider peers, whether they think our arguments are logical and concisely laid out.

Well, maybe you haven't been here long enough to know what and who we are referring to. But I bet Rich knows. It's funny to hear people saying they are not posting for the karma and then complain that so and so left them bad karma. But it's OK, if you feel it's not about popularity...The point being made is that high karma is not a synonymous of good person/good guy...

Remember, some of the worst Bad Guys have had some of the highest Karma.

Originally Posted by KelliH

Remember, some of the worst Bad Guys have had some of the highest Karma.

My point exactly Kelli

Originally Posted by KelliH

Remember, some of the worst Bad Guys have had some of the highest Karma.

My point is that Karma can't/shouldn't be used as a determination factor on who's good or bad or popular. It's for the QUALITY of posts.

But anyone else is free to interpet Karma as being used to show who is a good guy or not.