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I said earlier on that I had probably posted my last comments on this thread, however since Fred may such a point of addressing me in particular, I feel I should reply to him. This is a very long post, if it takes up to much bandwidth, then I ask that the webmaster remove it if he needs to. Sorry it is so long, but I really thing that Fred, in my opinion, really confused this issue as far as my replies to Kisha went - so I would like to explain my comments and opinions in light of his post:
Fred,
Your post is rather difficult for me to understand. Yes I comprehend what you are saying, but I find your interpretation of what I believe rather off the mark to say the least in my opinion. Yes I stated my opinion in reply to the post of Kisha that invited other's opinions. I did that just as I am doing with you. I do not make my opinion a statement of fact, but one of what I believe. I am entitled to my opinions and such is not libelous wherein I do not state such as fact or maliciously attack someone else. Please explain sir how giving my opinion is libelous, even if my opinion is that she is practicing liberalism or that she is wrong on this issue. These are my feelings, my opinions and are stated as such throughout my posts. I am not stating it as fact, nor do I intend to imply such. If you make such implication by reading my post, that is your error and not mine. I do not mince words and when I say it is my belief, or my opinion, or I think, or as I see it, that is just what I mean – it is my viewpoint, and not yet a proven fact.
Now for you to go on and call my opinion a "crock" (and I am sort of guessing that you mean you think my opinion is a lie) and then say that I know my own opinion is a crock, is in my belief nonsensical. I wonder if you say this because of some type of personal anger control problem, and wonder if you are angry at me for stating my opinion just because it is in opposition to yours and Kisha’s. Let me assure you that: I would not waste my time posting as many well thought out responses, as I did, if in fact I believed it to be a "crock". Just because you believe such does not mean even for a moment that I do! If you truly think that I would waste my valuable time writing what I believed were untruths, or a what amounts to a “crock” as you call it, on this particular subject - well, then all I can say is that you are mistaken This last particular statement, about you being mistaken if that is what you believe, is not my opinion but a fact!
As to your arguments about not allowing the policy of other than vendors coming into a show with animals, let me look at that point by point. Here is a quote from your post:
"If a vendow(Me for instance) plunks down hard earned money to rent a table at a show with the expressed purpose of trying to showcase or sell his/her wres, then WHY should somebody be admitted to said show and allowed to market their WARES or items for sale for virtually NOTHING?"
Well I would answer as I did before, it is the prerogative of the promoter to run his/her show as seen fit by the promoter. They started this show as a small time breeder/dealer/trader show to encourage small time breeders/dealers/traders, if I understand it correctly. They then expanded to allow commercial vendors. If that is what they as the promoters want, I again ask, why do you see a need to ruin it or change it. This one show is not in anyway going to cause you to go bankrupt if you do not attend, is it? If you do not like it, do not vend at that show, that is your prerogative Of course you can complain, and try to upset the apple cart, so to speak. Maybe some of the complaints will fall on hearing ears and others on deaf ears. Maybe something will be changed, but why, and I ask this really not understanding, why do you see fit to try to change this one show with such, at least in my opinion, apparent vehemence?
As for vending at such a show, you would, in my opinion, be foolish to vend at a show that you believed had all the hazards you go on to speak about; that is of course if you actually believed everything that you wrote. (Do you get my drift, your crock stuff could work both ways, although I will not say {or think} even for a moment that I believe that you knowingly wrote what you believed was a crock. This does not mean I agree with your statements, but simply that I will remain a bit more respectful of your opinion, than I think, you did of mine, and give you the benefit of the doubt).
Let me quote you again:
"If the show itself doesnt openly discourage this practice, either due to arcane thinking practices or because they want to make it more of a "swapmeet" of reptiles,, then that needs to be stated UP FRONT in writing to EVERY vendor BEFORE they put out money and sign on the dotted line."
As for this being a reptile show as you and the promoters call it, I beg to differ. A show, I believe, by classic definition, is when the animals are on display in competition to win prizes or for the sake of showing them off. Some shows allow small time sales and trades. This is the classic definition of a show - but maybe you think that arcane. This so called show was either a reptile/amphibian swap meet or sale in your view if I understand you correctly, don’t you agree. I think what you feel is that it was a sale and not a swap meet. Maybe you should inquire before attending any Herp Show to make sure it is either a: show, a sale, or a swap meet since the terms are often used interchangeably and or incorrectly. Actually I think that would be rather responsible on the part of the vendor, and would be rather responsible on the part of the promoter to explain it also. If a promoter tries to fool you though, that may be criminal. Take such a promoter to court, not me. I am voicing my opinion. The promoter is the one who is renting the table space. I am pretty sure though, that if it is not stated in writing one way or the other, that the promoter would win this one so long as he/she did not try to mislead you otherwise. However, I do agree, that to be on the up and up, such should be made known to dealers right up front. I also think it stinks big time if a promoter does not let you know of this practice ahead of time; and it stinks double time if the vendor is so irresponsible as to assume the show will be one way and not make a detailed inquiry before the show about show rules. Didn’t I, in essence, mention that in one of my posts, let’s see, and I quote my post:
“Granted if the promoter tried to hide these facts from you, then that may be fraud on his part and that stinks. It also stinks if they were just too inconsiderate to let you know all of the rules, but that is only another reason that you should have checked on them.”
As for the vendor, I think that as a responsible vendor you would have an obligation to check on the terms of signing on that dotted line before you do so. You seem to think that when you sign up for a table, the promoter is responsible for everything, I disagree. I think you need to show some responsibility as a vendor, and asking such questions, instead of assuming how a show will be run would fall in this arena. How did Kisha approach the situation before the show? Did she check it out thoroughly or make an assumption? You can reread her posts and decide, she seemed somewhat ambiguous on this issue in my opinion. So, I am not sure, but she gives a hint early on in her posts, allow me to quote her: “I expected the same when I moved to the other side of the country.” This is making reference to no outside animals rules.
Fred, you go on to say that a vendor has only two options regarding such a situation, and I will address each, one at a time. I again quote you:
“a) Choose NOT to exhibit their animals at that show, afraid of cross contamination, theft(If people arewalking around with animals not enclosed HOW do you KNOW that they havent come off of another vendors table, stolen?) or just dismayed that the BUYING PUBLIC is being allowed to purchase reptiles from people that dont even have enough VESTED INTEREST in this whole thing to even rent a table at a pultry $50 for the weekend(Pleazzee....anyone that cant put up $50 to rent a table is either to cheap or focused on ONLY profit)”
This one covers a few things, so bear with me please. If you are afraid of cross contamination, then do not bring any of your animals to a show (used generically from now on to cover shows, sales, swap meets). The majority of obviously sick herps I have seen at shows have been on dealer’s tables, and this goes for shows I have attended across the country. Potential buyers handle the animals all the time, then move onto another table and handle others at that table. This is the number one way to spread disease at a show, not through some air borne disease. In fact I have never seen mites pole vault from one table to another but have seen them make it across the whole room at a herp show. They were all over a potential customers hands at one show, because he handled another dealer’s snakes that were infested with them. The guy was really worried and asked what they were and where they had come from. If you are truly worried about cross contamination then do not let anyone handle your snakes (then you will worry about why your snakes do not sell). If you are not quite that worried but still concerned, then make certain that anyone who handles your snakes washes with a good alcohol swab or alcohol gel prior to handling your snakes – have the swabs or gel available at your table. This will cut the risk greatly of cross contamination by bacteria and viruses as I understand it.
As to how you know if an animal was stolen from another vendor, you do not know. How would you know if the snake in the deli cup was not stolen from another vendor. I know tags and stickers can be put on deli cups and receipt have to be shown at the door. This is baby stuff for a pro. A pro would buy a snake, get the sticker on the deli cup and now have a receipt. Then he would dump that snake in his car and re-enter the show with the deli cup and receipt. Guess what, the next snake he steals goes right into that deli cup and he has a sticker and receipt. He could keep this up all day. As for the not so smart guy, if the guy stole the snake, don’t you think that in the great majority of cases even a dope would have enough sense to hide it until he/she makes a getaway?
As to people being too cheap or focused only on profit, excuse me but that seems to be the bottom line for you in my opinion. You seemed incensed, to me, that someone with a snake could come into the show and sell it. Why would a guy selling a snake or three want to put down $50 for a table when the snakes will only sell for $20 as in normal corns. It was be ridiculous for him to do so, in my mind; that is not being cheap, that is basic economics for a really small time herp enthusiast .
I move on to the other choice you said a vendor would have, and I quote you:
“b) complain to the promoter that this show, allthough good, could be SOO m”uch better if people were not allowed to just bring their animals in and walk around with them nor properly enclosed.”
I agree that all reptiles and amphibians should be properly enclosed; however not necessarily in cages or glass aquaria. I think that plastic shoeboxes, deli cups, plastic terraria, snake bags, and other such enclosures are also appropriate for a show as this.
I move onto your point about whether or not someone can state their opinion. I quote you again (I am quoting so there can be no misunderstanding):
“Sound to me GLENN, that Kisha was trying to improve the quality of the show she WANTED to exhibit in. And it also sounds GLENN, like she was voicing her *OPINION* something you did Quite freely in your earlier posts. Would you deny here this right, while maintsining the need for it yourself?”
Please bear in mind that it was Kisha who asked for opinions. I gave mine, and as soon as I did she tells me to stop giving it if I understand correctly. She told me, and I quote her post: “Whoa, Glenn, easy big fella”. Now I am not in anyway related to Mr. Ed, you remember him, don’t you. He was the talking horse (LOL). I do think “whoa” means I should stop in a way that someone is reigning in a horse. Don’t you agree that what she said to me is what you would say to reign in a horse? She also went on, as I understood it, to try and get me to use other language than I chose to in stating my opinion. I did not try to stop her from voicing her opinion, I just gave mine. I also replied to her again saying:
“You asked for opinions. I gave mine. If it is not in agreement with your own, well in the words of Sister Walter Phillip a nun I had in grammar school many years ago: TOUGH NOOGIES. I don't mean that to be nasty… I have a right to my opinion, just as you have a right to have your own opinion. I do not expect you to stop posting how you feel simply because our opinions disagree. I find it quite amusing though that: the first person whose opinion disagrees with your own and you tell that person "whoa.." and to " lay off...".
I think everyone should be able to voice their opinion. I do not think that people should say this is wrong I want to change it, when it really is no business of theirs, and that is my opinion. Kisha invited opinions. The show in question invited vendors but not opinions. Sure you can tell them your opinion, but do not expect them to change policy just because of your quite possibly, in my opinion, over presumptuous say so. And of course, you can try to make suggestions and seek opinions to improve a show, but I ask you is that what Kisha was doing? Now you may think that Kisha was just seeking opinions. I beg to differ. Of course she says, and I quote again:
“I am just looking for some oppinions (I'm sure I'll get some good ones”
Which in a later post, is seemingly contradicted by another of her own statements, and I quote: “I would like to change some of the questionable herp practices that I have noticed on this side of the country.”
That second quote, she apparently contradicts, in yet another subsequent post on the same thread: “The reason I posted was to find out if I even had a right to be annoyed. I'm not looking to change someones show outright.”
Then on the BOI she posts the following, and as I understand it, on basically the same issue involving the same show: "I now realize that the show started small, but mabey policies should change with the growing show."
So which is it. Was she “just” seeking opinions, was she trying to make things better (and for whom), was she annoyed, was she seeking to change questionable herp practices, which was it? I am confused as to which it was, and wonder how it is after you read all of her posts, that you can be so certain.
She possibly got upset that I used the word “crusade” to describe what I believed she was doing. My purpose was not to get her upset, but to describe, what in my opinion, seemed to be her style of approaching this issue. She went back and forth, in my opinion, as to exactly what she was doing as seen in the quotes above and in other statements she made. Then she says “campaign” would be a better word to describe what she was doing. She then in essence, if I understood correctly, compares by way of example both herself and her cause to that of Rosa Parks. She also made what I believe were quite racially inflammatory statements saying in essence that if ‘Ms. Parks had not stood up against the white folks…’. I did not know that all white folks were segregationists or racists at the time Rosa Parks stood up for her rights, or at any time. In fact I seem to remember that thousands, no tens of thousands of so called “white folks” died in the Civil War fighting for the Emancipation Proclamation and the freedom of the slaves. I think (my opinion again) such a statement about Rosa Parks was totally uncalled for. I wonder why a ‘European American versus African American’ issue was brought up in a discussion about how a herp show is run? I wonder why such a comparison was made; that of Rosa Parks issues to Kisha's issues about herp shows? It truly befuddles me. I also feel it belittles the memory of a great woman such as Rosa Parks to have such an example given in this context. Well, after reading the stuff about Rosa Parks, and before thinking about it all too seriously, as I have since done; I then said something to the effect that 'I now think that crusade was too mild a word' and that “movement” fits it much better. What with the memory of Ms. Parks and the civil rights movement being brought up and compared to her own cause I thoought I would have a bit of fun with my new word. I did this sort of tongue in cheek, no offense was meant. Nonetheless I am now quite serious when I say, that comparison really troubles me. It seems really inappropriate in my opinion. Fred, maybe you can tell me how it was appropriate, and then explain how my use of the word ‘crusade’ was inappropriate. I just do not get it, and I am not being one bit sarcastic, I mean it.
In my opinion, I think it was pretty obvious from her own statements that Kisha was indeed seeking change, liberal if not radical change for this show. I further believe, from what I can make out, that she may have sought this change because the practices allowed by the promoter were not in accordance with shows she was used to wherein the shows was geared toward vendor only sales. I also believe she may possibly have gotten mad at the promoter who basically told her ‘so what, not a problem’, because that vendor did not change things in her favor (that is just my opinion based on what I understood from her posts).
My bottom line is this: In my opinion, you can have one, you can have the other, you can attend one or the other or even both; but you do not need to squash the whole ideal behind the way a show is run simply because you do not like how it is done. That ideal as explained was to promote small time sales and trades. If that ideal is yet part of this show, it is not unethical, it is not wrong. Borrowing from a somewhat famous and comical American: If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it – so, in my opinion, why try to fix it? Sure you can complain, but when the promoter basically in essence says: ‘it has never been a problem’, and ‘so what’ – well, in the words of Sister Walter Phillip: Tough Noogies!
As for the rest of your post Fred, you seemed it necessary to write my name in caps a few times, why I don’t know. I know my own name, and I think others could easily figure out to whom you were referring. You also tell Kisha to ignore hecklers. Who was heckling? She asked for opinions. She got them. She can disagree with them, as I can disagree with hers, as can you voice your own opinion. That is the purpose of a forum at least in part. From what I have seen, even though we disagree on the initial question, Kisha seems to understand this better than you. If you do not like my opinions, then feel free to post your own; but Fred, if you have a problem with me posting my opinions - well, just see the last two words of the preceding paragraph.
Best regards,
Glenn Bartley
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