Top Shelf Exotics (Inquiry)

Good to hear bob. Thanks for your words earlier, I am glad we were able to resolve our differences. I will be dealing with the other problems encountered upon my return as we discussed. Take care of yourself.

Bob #2, glad your order arrived in good order.

Originally Posted by Bob Kite

First I would just like to say that I DID note that I was contacted, and second, I NEVER said anyone was a con or a crook (I only say this because you said that right after quoting me).
.

Sorry Bob, I should have been more specific since i was indeed speaking of the other person (Ian S) on the thread. I Didnt mean to imply you had said anything derogatory.


P.S. Congratulation on you new aquisitions, I wish i had the monies avaiilable to get into the high end ball morphs too!!! (even though I am not even sure what a orange ghost ball python looks like, guess i will have to do a search on that one).

TSE has shipped animals that were sick and in no condition to be sold let alone shipped.

I purchased 3 animals from Top Shelf on September 23rd, 2005, hets for clown, hypo, and pied. I received a package on Septmeber 27th containing 3 ball pythons, all cold and lethargic. I sent an email right away to inform TSE:

Top Shelf Exotics:

I received my Fed Ex shipment shortly after 11:00. They are cold and lethargic. I honestly would have expected a heat pack in the box. Additionally, they look very thin and in poor condition. I am apprehensive about their overall health. Since I didn't sepcifically ask about the size prior to ordering, I cannot make any specific complaints about that but I was surprised at how small they are. I wanted to alert you of their condition and my initial impressions in case there is an underlying problem in the near future. Do you have individual feeding information for these three snakes?

My email was met with snide comments apologizing for my "assumptions". After coaxing information out of TSE regarding their feeding history I sent this:

I'm very concerned about their well-being and they look very thin. The het pied can't hold his head up, is thin, and is very limp with no muscle tone . The het hypo is much the same way. The het clown is active and has better body firmness than the other two. I will be surprised to see the pied and hypo be able to take live prey.

I do hope and expect them to come around but I need to make sure to make mention of my concerns. I trust in your reputation to make things right should I have a problem with these three snakes.

One snake died overnight and I sent this:

Top Shelf Exotics:

The Het Ghost died during the night and weighed 43g at death. The Het Pied is currently 48g, hollow bellied and limp, but not dead yet. Please advise how you would like to remedy this situation and what you would like me to do with the corpse(s). I do not want two more unhealthy, underweight animals. If you have nothing healthy and at least 100g I would prefer a refund for the Het Ghost and Het Pied. The Het Clown weighs 99g, appears active and has much better body mass. I am cautiously optimistic in his case.

Almost immediately my husbandry was called into question. I am unaware of what kind of poor husbandry you would have to subject snakes to short of cooking or freezing that would result in such low weights and death so quickly. The het pied subsequently died the following day. Photos were sent to TSE to document the deaths and the bodies frozen. I returned their paperwork as requested but lo and behold when the replacement animals were supposed to ship, there were mistakenly fed. The animals were finally replaced the following week and appeared to be in better health.

Since then the animals have done well but I have this sinking feeling that we will be hearing about how no hets from TSE prove out that were conveniently sold at the time when Chris was out and disavowing responsibility.

I hope this doesn't turn out to be a Carolina Reptile type of situation....
______

Jason Northam

Ps. If anyone needs the actual emails or pictures as further proof I would be happy to provide them.

Originally Posted by NorthamExotics

TSE has shipped animals that were sick and in no condition to be sold let alone shipped.

I purchased 3 animals from Top Shelf on September 23rd, 2005, hets for clown, hypo, and pied. I received a package on Septmeber 27th containing 3 ball pythons, all cold and lethargic. I sent an email right away to inform TSE:

Top Shelf Exotics:

I received my Fed Ex shipment shortly after 11:00. They are cold and lethargic. I honestly would have expected a heat pack in the box. Additionally, they look very thin and in poor condition. I am apprehensive about their overall health. Since I didn't sepcifically ask about the size prior to ordering, I cannot make any specific complaints about that but I was surprised at how small they are. I wanted to alert you of their condition and my initial impressions in case there is an underlying problem in the near future. Do you have individual feeding information for these three snakes?

My email was met with snide comments apologizing for my "assumptions". After coaxing information out of TSE regarding their feeding history I sent this:

I'm very concerned about their well-being and they look very thin. The het pied can't hold his head up, is thin, and is very limp with no muscle tone . The het hypo is much the same way. The het clown is active and has better body firmness than the other two. I will be surprised to see the pied and hypo be able to take live prey.

I do hope and expect them to come around but I need to make sure to make mention of my concerns. I trust in your reputation to make things right should I have a problem with these three snakes.

One snake died overnight and I sent this:

Top Shelf Exotics:

The Het Ghost died during the night and weighed 43g at death. The Het Pied is currently 48g, hollow bellied and limp, but not dead yet. Please advise how you would like to remedy this situation and what you would like me to do with the corpse(s). I do not want two more unhealthy, underweight animals. If you have nothing healthy and at least 100g I would prefer a refund for the Het Ghost and Het Pied. The Het Clown weighs 99g, appears active and has much better body mass. I am cautiously optimistic in his case.

Almost immediately my husbandry was called into question. I am unaware of what kind of poor husbandry you would have to subject snakes to short of cooking or freezing that would result in such low weights and death so quickly. The het pied subsequently died the following day. Photos were sent to TSE to document the deaths and the bodies frozen. I returned their paperwork as requested but lo and behold when the replacement animals were supposed to ship, there were mistakenly fed. The animals were finally replaced the following week and appeared to be in better health.

Since then the animals have done well but I have this sinking feeling that we will be hearing about how no hets from TSE prove out that were conveniently sold at the time when Chris was out and disavowing responsibility.

I hope this doesn't turn out to be a Carolina Reptile type of situation....
______

Jason Northam

Ps. If anyone needs the actual emails or pictures as further proof I would be happy to provide them.

In fairness, you should provide the emails sent to you by TSE since you provided your own.

Originally Posted by NorthamExotics

TSE has shipped animals that were sick and in no condition to be sold let alone shipped..

sorry to hear that!!!

Originally Posted by NorthamExotics

I do hope and expect them to come around but I need to make sure to make mention of my concerns. I trust in your reputation to make things right should I have a problem with these three snakes...

Which he did as you said, as will all reputable dealers.

Originally Posted by NorthamExotics

The animals were finally replaced the following week and appeared to be in better health....

Glad he came through for you and replaced the animals.

Originally Posted by NorthamExotics

ince then the animals have done well but I have this sinking feeling that we will be hearing about how no hets from TSE prove out that were conveniently sold at the time when Chris was out and disavowing responsibility.....

I hope this doesn't turn out to be a Carolina Reptile type of situation.

.
You had a nice honest post concerning a transaction and your disappointment with it, and the results of the transaction to the end up until these comments.
You are now making a deflamatory, and business altering remark without proof. Here we go again!!!!
I dont think a sinking feeling gives you the right to criticize them on the BOI in publis unless you have proof of it. Now it would be safe to safe people reading this may not buy hets from him because you put his hets into question without even having any proof. Is that fair??



Ps. If anyone needs the actual emails or pictures as further proof I would be happy to provide them.[/quote]

sorry for the ps. part at the bottom of my post,I didnt see it there when i quoted parts of his post.

Originally Posted by nicolai

You are now making a deflamatory, and business altering remark without proof. Here we go again!!!!
I dont think a sinking feeling gives you the right to criticize them on the BOI in publis unless you have proof of it. Now it would be safe to safe people reading this may not buy hets from him because you put his hets into question without even having any proof. Is that fair??

You beat me to it, Nicolai. I am in 100% agreement with you on this one. There was no reason what so ever to inject that kind of speculation into this thread.

I will post them to the best of my ability... hopefully there aren't any missing ones.. mine are in red, theirs in blue. I don't know how to paste the header showing dates and times.

9/27/05 11:40AM
Top Shelf Exotics:

I received my Fed Ex shipment shortly after 11:00. They are cold and lethargic. I honestly would have expected a heat pack in the box. Additionally, they look very thin and in poor condition. I am apprehensive about their overall health. Since I didn't sepcifically ask about the size prior to ordering, I cannot make any specific complaints about that but I was surprised at how small they are. I wanted to alert you of their condition and my initial impressions in case there is an underlying problem in the near future. Do you have individual feeding information for these three snakes?

Jason Northam

9/27/05 12:15PM
We apologize that you assumed they would be larger but unfortunately we are not liable for customers assumptions.



As for the heat pack, when checking destination and departure temperatures a heatpack was not required. Live arrival was also guaranteed, you or the animals were at no risk whatsoever.



Sales Department


9/27/05 12:34PM
I acknowledged that my assumption regarding size was exactly that, and that I had no viable complaints about size... no need to restate that, but weight is often a sign of overall health and these animals' weights and lack of stored fat made me express that as a sign of concern as to their overall health. It was just a comment based on my never having dealt with Top Shelf before and I thought it was a service to you to let you know my thoughts based on the prior experiences I have had with other breeders. I know that I, as a seller of captive bred reptiles, appreciate feedback regarding the overall business experience especially where the health of an animal may be a concern.

I felt it in the best interest of both of us to let you know the specifics of their arrival and my impression of their overall condition. Having ordered snakes numerous times via Kingsnake as well as selling and shipping snakes myself, I had higher expectations of their condition based on your reputation. I also had higher expectations in regards to the temperature concerns based on your claims on your website regarding your level of integrity when it comes to not shipping in conditions that were unsatisfactory for the animal's well being. If you feel that the temperatures were safe with no heat pack based on your past experiences then I am forced to accept that. I would have handled it differently based on what I feel ideal conditions are for shipping.

Did you overlook my question regarding feeding history or schedule? I realize that including this information is not stated in your terms but could prove helpful to me in ensuring that these three animals thrive in my care.

Regards,
-Jason Northam

9/27/05 12:52PM
We apologize that they were shipped without heating elements, we felt that they were not required for your specific shipment but also show temperatures reached lower than “forecasted” as well so had we known of the drop we probably would have used a heating element. Again, our apologies.



Sales Department

9/27/05 2:25PM
Can you tell me what they were feeding on so I can maintain consistency?

9/27/05 2:26PM

But of course. They were taking live hoppers and were in the process of being switched to thawed rat pups. They may take the pups but if they are hesitant the hoppers will easily suffice until they are switched. Take care.



Sales Department


Email: sales@topshelfexotic.com


9/27/05 2:35PM
I appreciate the response. I'm very concerned about their well-being and they look very thin. The het pied can't hold his head up, is thin, and is very limp with no muscle tone . The het hypo is much the same way. The het clown is active and has better body firmness than the other two. I will be surprised to see the pied and hypo be able to take live prey.

I do hope and expect them to come around but I need to make sure to make mention of my concerns. I trust in your reputation to make things right should I have a problem with these three snakes.

Regards,
-Jason Northam


9/28/05 8:35AM
Top Shelf Exotics:

The Het Ghost died during the night and weighed 43g at death. The Het Pied is currently 48g, hollow bellied and limp, but not dead yet. Please advise how you would like to remedy this situation and what you would like me to do with the corpse(s). I do not want two more unhealthy, underweight animals. If you have nothing healthy and at least 100g I would prefer a refund for the Het Ghost and Het Pied. The Het Clown weighs 99g, appears active and has much better body mass, at 99g. I am cautiously optimistic in his case.

Please Advise,
-Jason Northam

Here are three pictures of the Het Ghost this morning.. I also have pictures of the Het Pied.

9/28/05 8:44AM

We are sorry that the animals did so poorly during shipment and one has perished, please keep any dead specimen(s) on ice until told otherwise. Keep us updated on the heterozygous pied female as well and forward photos if and when she perishes. Your specimens were guaranteed and will be replaced. You can mail the paperwork for the deceased heterozygous ghost to the address below:



Top Shelf Exotics

812 French

Cheektowaga NY 14227



Keep us updated.



Sales Department

(here is a date I was mistaken about- the het pied held on for a week or so)

10/4/05 2:11PM

I wanted to update you on the condition of the '05 male het pied. I attempted to feed him on both f/t and live fuzzies and hoppers and he showed no interest in either eating or distancing himself from them. He makes virtually no attempts to move. I have kept him hydrated as much as I can. You should have received your paperwork back on the dead male het ghost by now.

10/5/05 9:16AM

May I ask how you are housing him?


10/5/05 9:27AM
He's currently in a small Critter Keeper with an Exo-Terra cave hide and a 3.5" diameter water bowl. I have a strip of 3" wide silicone rubber heat mat along a shelf set to 90° and the Critter Keepers are set with one end over the mat. Ambient in the room is 75 at night and 80-85 during the day. The overhead lights are turned on at 7:00am and off at 8:00pm.

10/5/05 9:32AM
Small Critter Keepers do not offer enough room to obtain a proper thermal gradient. Even medium or large Critter Keepers would not be suggested. Also, overhead lights or any lights for that matter are not needed.



Photograph this “setup” and forward it immediately.



Sales Department

10/5/05 9:49AM

The overhead lights are set for my convenience, not the animal's needs. I am at work currently but can take a picture for you tonight and forward it in the morning.
If you would rather, I can send the animal back tomorrow. The het clown is is currently in the same "setup" and doing well, taking f/t.

I am not getting a good feeling about our communication. I have kept snakes including Ball pythons for 15 years and I know what works for me. I had informed you that two out of the three animals were not in good shape when they arrived and the het ghost died within 24 hours. This is not a care issue, it is an issue of poor quality animals being sold. I would like nothing more than for all three of the animals purchased from you to thrive, but we are already down to two. I would like to know what you, Chris Johnson as Top Shelf Exotics will do to rectify this situation.


10/5/05 9:58AM

This is Glenn, Not Chris. As specified previously Chris has been out ill for quite some time, he’s in and out on occasion but responds to personal email at cjohnson@topshelfexotic.com. If directing correspondence to Chris please send it to his personal address.



The animals as stated are covered and I would rather not return an animal in questionable condition which would essentially ruin any chances that this animal may have to turn its ailment around by condemning it in transit. As stated previously the animal that passed will be replaced and your concern was voiced over the additional questionable specimen which will be replaced as well if it passes. We hope it improves of course but we will back our guarantee regardless and replace said animals to satisfaction. I am still a bit confused to how the animals fared so poorly in transit but we have since decided to release specimens a period of four to five weeks later than previously practiced to ensure safe transit. We did not have any issues last season but this season brought us two “DOA’s” in transit so we’re adjusting our policies accordingly. Thanks for keeping us updated.



Sales Department

Glenn,

I had been in contact with Chris after voicing my initial complaints and he instructed me to communicate updates to him, which is why my initial email from yesterday was sent to his email address. The reply I received today was from the sales@topshelfexotic.com address which seems odd to me since Chris requested that I use his address.

I would rather not subject the het pied to shipping again either however I don't know that the initial shipping had much to do with the condition of the animals. Forty-three grams is very small for an animal that has been eating for numerous weeks (which is the weight the het ghost was received at) and 45 grams (which the het pied was received at) is an especially low weight for the length of this animal as well.

As for the subject of care, all new baby Ball pythons I receive are housed in the same manner and are moved to Sterilite tubs after I have had a chance to observe them, ensure they are eating, and gauge their overall well being.

Should I continue to update Chris at his address or use this one now as I am confused about which email Chris Johnson monitors.

At that point Chris became involved, or let me know he was involved.



10/10/05 9:40AM
Chris,

Unfortunately the '05 Het Pied Male died Saturday evening. I have him preserved along with the Ghost Male. I am sending the paperwork to the 812 French address as I did with the Ghost paperwork. I have pictures but left them at home. I will run home on lunch and send them this afternoon.

On a bright note, the Het Clown still seems to be doing well with normal feeding, defecating and activity.

What is the plan for replacements? How long do you want me to keep the two dead ones? I can ship them back if you need them.

Regards,

Jason Northam


10/10/05 12:56PM

Just keep them on ice until I say otherwise. I’ll need photos of the deceased and the paperwork sent back as well. I’m glad to hear the heterozygous clown is doing well. Talk to you soon.



C. Johnson


Hope this lends clarity..

-Jason Northam

I have posted my experience along with my opinion and fears regarding transactions with TSE. Not once did I accuse anyone of anything but I don't believe I am wrong in voicing my concerns today, April 19th, 2006. I will be the FIRST one to post when and if my hets prove out. If you feel otherwise, you are entitled to do so but it was an accusatory inflammatory remark but rather a concern.

Let me pose it to yo uthis way: If a company misrepresents the condition of animals, can anyone be sure they do not misrepresent the genetics?

-Jason Northam