Baby ball refuses assist feed

Hey guys,
About a month ago I got a baby ball het axanthic. She's been refusing live food. We got her post-first shed, and pre-first feed. Over the course of the month she's lost 4 grams and looks really thin.

We finally tried to assist feed her tonight, and she had some serious difficulty opening her mouth even with the help of the center bar of a q-tip. Half opened fine, but the other side looked like teeth were getting stuck, but they weren't actually stuck.

She's in a rack with 9 other snakes, and the others are doing very well, including her axanthic male sibling, who is in the process of converting to f/t. The racks are at 87 on the warm side and 82 on the cold side, she has a hide and fresh water and we left her alone for over a week when she first arrived.

We've tried mice fuzzies, and hoppers, and small rat pups. We've tried at several different times of day, and keep the room dark so that she'll feel secure. She actively runs away from the food, hiding as far from it as possible, including climbing into her water bowl to escape. When we aren't trying to feed her, she sometimes cruises and seems hungry, but sometimes stays in her hide, or behind it for a long time.

Any ideas? How much weight would she have to lose before it becomes critical? Any advice would be appreciated.
We don't have a vet in the area that we trust, so I thought I'd get some advice here first and then go from there.
Thanks!
Charmaine

how much did she weigh before? how much now? I assume she hasn't eaten anything at all for you, what did the breeder feed her? what did they say or have you contacted them yet? You may be able to send her back if the two of you think the breeder can get her eating again. Assuming the breeder is willing to do so.

have you tried leaving various states of F/T food overnight with her?
when you tried to force feed her, was the fact that her mouth was half stuck shut the reason you were unsuccessful? or did she expell it out after it was in her mouth/down her throat?

Originally Posted by darkbloodwyvern

how much did she weigh before? how much now? I assume she hasn't eaten anything at all for you, what did the breeder feed her? what did they say or have you contacted them yet? You may be able to send her back if the two of you think the breeder can get her eating again. Assuming the breeder is willing to do so.

have you tried leaving various states of F/T food overnight with her?
when you tried to force feed her, was the fact that her mouth was half stuck shut the reason you were unsuccessful? or did she expell it out after it was in her mouth/down her throat?

She was 51g, and now she is 47g. Not a huge loss so far, but consistent.
No, She hasn't eaten anything at all for us, and nothing at all for the breeder since we got her post-first shed and pre-first feed.
The breeder has been very helpful and has given us advice, but unfortunately lives about 5 hours away, so short of a road trip, there's not much he can do.

We haven't tried leaving f/t overnight because she is so scared and after only a few minutes is rushing around and hyperventilating, even with f/t. The longest we've left her in with f/t was a few hours.
She pretty much refused to open her mouth at all, and no amount of sticking food in her partly opened mouth was getting any response except trying to break free.

The point where you should be concerned is when you see skin folds in her laterals towards the posterior end (close to the cloacae). If you get to the point where you need to force feed use small dead pinky mice to start with. Lubricate them with water. Open the mouth gently. Place the head of the pinky inside the mouth as far down the throat as you can go (at least the whole head). Gently make pressure closing the mouth while holding the pinky with the other hand. Without releasing the pressure move just one tiny little bit (1-2 mm) backwards as if you were trying to remove the pinky from the mouth; this movement will make the pinky get stuck in the ball python's teeth. Gently release the ball python in a box and don't move one bit until she starts swallowing. If she refuses repeat again. Eventually they get tired and start swallowing. When she is about to swallow the pinky totally rear legs and tail left out place a second pinky with tongs to "chain-feed". This minimizes the stress of having to pick-up your snake multiple times and maximizes the meal size. Only move yourself while the snake is moving (e.g. when swallowing) when she is still, don't move one finger.

Hope this helps.

It sounds like you have been trying to feed her quite often, attempting feeding too often can actually cause more stress and make it even more difficult ot get them to eat. Do NOT try feeding more often than every 5 days to a week.

I would choose an appropriately sized food item, such as a rat pink or fuzzy, and put it in with her, live, overnight. A rat pink cannot do any harm to her. If she doesn't eat it overnight, take it out, and try again in 5 days or so, leaving her alone other than necessities otherwise. Personally, I've never had any luck at all getting a baby BP to eat f/t on their first meal, but you can try that too if you choose, all snakes are different.

4 grams really isn't a huge weight loss, unless she was exceptionally small to begin with....but if you feel the need to assist feed, you need to be able to get the prey item far enough in so that they may begin swallowing it, just having it hanging out of half of the mouth probably isn't going to do it. Make sure you are using a f/t prey item, and I would use one smaller than what she would normally feed on. Dampening the items slightly with water will help it "slide down" a bit better.

This is part of the reason why I will NOT sell a baby until I know that it is well established and eating. Sometimes baby BP can be a real pain to get started, and I'd rather it be ME that's stressing over it than the new owner, who may not have the knowledge to get it going.

Good luck.

So it wasn't that the snake had a problem opening its mouth, as initially stated...it was that you did (just seeking clarification)? Certainly, if it WAS the snake that was having difficulty, I would likely be sending it right back to the breeder.

I mean no offense by the following questions, so please take them at face value -
how much experience do you have with "just out of the egg" babies?
have you ever dealt with problem feeders before?
(depending on the answers to the above, I would likely add: why purchase a snake that has never taken a meal?)
Have you tried temperature manipulation?
Introducing a nestling rodent while the snake is in its hide?
Leaving nestlings in overnight?

Originally Posted by hhmoore

So it wasn't that the snake had a problem opening its mouth, as initially stated...it was that you did (just seeking clarification)? Certainly, if it WAS the snake that was having difficulty, I would likely be sending it right back to the breeder.

I mean no offense by the following questions, so please take them at face value -
how much experience do you have with "just out of the egg" babies?
have you ever dealt with problem feeders before?
(depending on the answers to the above, I would likely add: why purchase a snake that has never taken a meal?)
Have you tried temperature manipulation?
Introducing a nestling rodent while the snake is in its hide?
Leaving nestlings in overnight?

No worries, I take no offense.
As a clarification, sorry for the confusion, the snake could not, or would not open her mouth. It seemed as if her teeth were stuck, but I don't think they were, she just for some reason couldn't open one side of her mouth.

I don't have a ton of experience with just out of the egg babies. Total we have 5 that were post shed, but pre-first feed. Two of them were purchased a month or so before she was, and we had a lot of luck getting them to eat, and now they are doing great. So we thought that we would be fine getting some more youngsters, and the other two that we bought at the same time are doing really well and are converting to f/t.

We have a lot experience (relatively) with problem feeders, but it has never been this difficult, and they have never been so small when the problems occurred, or when we got them. All of them however just took some tweeking to figure out what their preference was (live, rats, time of day, how many hides, size of enclosure...).

If by temperature manipulation you mean changing the temperature, then yes we've tried, but we haven't significantly changed them because she's in a rack with 9 other BPs who are doing very well.

We have introduced very small fuzzies when she was in her hide, but she came out and then tried to escape rather than eat or attack it.
We haven't left her in overnight with a live prey item, not because it could hurt her, obviously it could not, but because she gets so stressed out and hyperventilates and bangs against the walls to get out, and I felt that it might be too much to leave it in overnight.



Cat-
We've left her alone at least 5 days in between each attempt, except once when we first tried to feed her, and we gave her a "second try" on a slightly smaller fuzzy.
4g isn't huge, I agree, I just want to try to nip this issue in the bud before it becomes 8g, 10g etc... At 47g I would rather she didn't lose too much more weight, but I agree, it's not critical.

Thanks for the advice and help! I guess we'll try again in a week or so, and maybe leave it in overnight anyways, maybe she'll eat just to get it away from her

Originally Posted by OpheliaisDead

No worries, I take no offense.
As a clarification, sorry for the confusion, the snake could not, or would not open her mouth. It seemed as if her teeth were stuck, but I don't think they were, she just for some reason couldn't open one side of her mouth.

I would try once more, if for no reason other than to see if there is a problem. If the snake IS having difficulty opening its mouth, that would be a good explanation for why it responds the way it does - it is defenseless, so it has to run. A call to the seller, and possibly a trip to the vet (to confirm the problem, and find out if it can be corrected) would then be in order.

I think her flight response may be in reaction to your presence and an initial reaction to the prey. If you leave it in over night, it will become very dark and there will be no human presence in the room for many hours -- she would probably calm down and attempt to eat the prey once she realizes it isn't threatening. I have found that picky babies do well if you put only one hide in the tub, then put the prey inside the hide and let the snake "discover" the prey inside it as they try to enter, as they would discover rodents inside a burrow. It mimics their instinct -- I just bought a very young, skinny pastel from someone who could not get him to eat for anything -- yet with this approach, he has taken 3 very large rat pinks and 2 large rat pups since being in my care. I used this same method with my babies I hatched this year that didn't want to eat like their siblings. Darkness, alone time, and "discovering" the prey is what worked for all of them.

This of course would be after you rule out any physical deformity or neurological problem with the snake not being able to open her mouth. I would get that checked out ASAP.

As an update, we left her alone for awhile (a little over a week), and then left a fuzzy mouse in with her last night.
This morning the fuzzy was asleep behind her hide, and she was in her hide, none too pleased. We weighed her and she lost another 2 grams bringing her down to 45g.
I guess I'll try assist feeding again next week and see if her mouth opens, and then she's off to the vet.