about siklback and their husbandry

Originally Posted by Drache613

Hello,

I really don't even know where to start with all of this. While I am not a breeder, I still share concerns where the future will be going with bearded dragons.
I think my main concern right now, is the fact there is discrepancies of care from the 2 sources of the silkies. We really do need to know the facts. What I fear, is once they do start to try to breed them, unless they already are, is that there could be some serious injuries.
Look at females with scales, they STILL get injuries from breeding, so, I think it is a pretty safe bet that their scaleless counterparts would get an injury as well. It just makes sense. My other fear is that while they may be offered on a limited basis, they will still be offered. Currently, there are so many people who cannot even properly take care of a conventional bearded dragon, what makes us think that a scaleless bearded dragon is going to be safe in the public's hands? Chances are, they will not be cared for properly.
I personally, do not think it is fair forcing the breeding aspect in order to bring out a "desirable" trait. The dragons don't have a choice in the matter sure. If it is something that has to be inbred into them in order to force the desirable trait out, it will weaken them in one way or another which is not desirable in today's population. Yes, they probably do inbreed a little bit in the wild, but there is a much more diverse population to choose from than what we have to offer. They do not purposely do it, as they may lack numbers of proper male to female ratios on occasion. What we are doing is purposely, so, it is looked at as unethical.
I too, simply do not trust anything from these 2 sources. I know all about Dachiu's background & history. I am NOT impressed. While I do not know much to anything about Alessandro, if he wants to inform us & keep us informed, then, he needs to stick around to defend himself during these hard discussions. He has surely already proven that he can't take the heat, so, if he doesn't want to answer, or cannot answer, he simply does what is convenient to him, he disappears.
Yes, he was gracious enough to come on & answer questions & provide background to us, etc, but why can't he stick around now? If he is that concerned, then, he needs to be around to defend himself & his project as he calls it.

Tracie

Darn, I got a message that I've given out to much Karma in the last 24 hours so I must try again later.

People who are into buying oddities aren't going to care if they are vulnerable, and they aren't going to care about the risks to the animal during breeding because its more important to them that the animal satisfies the "cool" factor. Thats the sad reality of this industry.

Yes, and the sad fact of this industry is that there are immoral people out there that buy Red Beardeds and Leucistic Beardeds and yes, even Normal Beardeds (as well as any other reptile you can think of) and they don't care about the risks to the animal, they don't care about the animals at all really, the money they make is more important, that and the "coolness" factor. Just because a reptile breeder is into morphs or oddities does not mean that they do not properly care for their animals.

I think my main concern right now, is the fact there is discrepancies of care from the 2 sources of the silkies. We really do need to know the facts.

Daichu explained that here:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...68&postcount=4

I personally, do not think it is fair forcing the breeding aspect in order to bring out a "desirable" trait. The dragons don't have a choice in the matter sure. If it is something that has to be inbred into them in order to force the desirable trait out, it will weaken them in one way or another which is not desirable in today's population.

Do you think it is fair for big commercial breeders such as Sandfire Dragon Ranch, Ron Tremper, Dragons Den and etc. to force breeding to bring out desirable color morphs? I don't think the dragons have a choice in that matter either. You know that the large scale commercial breeders all inbreed, don't you?

I am NOT impressed. While I do not know much to anything about Alessandro, if he wants to inform us & keep us informed, then, he needs to stick around to defend himself during these hard discussions. He has surely already proven that he can't take the heat, so, if he doesn't want to answer, or cannot answer, he simply does what is convenient to him, he disappears.

I believe he has already answered the questions. Why should he stick around and answer the same questions over and over again, to people that are not going to believe him anyway?

kelli,yup and i believe what i said in the post that you quoted.if you read the beginning explanation in allessandro's first post in the other thread he said CLOSE relation but then he words things differently as more ppl get angry about the silkback "project".i also do not trust vickie.im pretty sure there is alot of money at stake for both of them. i sensed scrambling by both of them once they realized how many ppl were against the "project", and i am entitled to my opinion.now,can you (or any mod) plz quote post #146 and provide an answer?

Hello,

As I said, yes, Alessandro was gracious enough to answer some questions, but we have asked more depth, & what he feels some of the further health problems could be, etc. If he is proud of his project, then, he needs to stick around & defend his project as he is calling it. If he does not agree with what Dachiu has stated on their website, then, he needs to correct her if SHE is going to represent one of HIS projects.
So are you saying that breeders who purposely breed to cause a defect to breed out, they are properly caring for their animals? How is that? There is more to properly caring for animals, than just husbandry. Where are the ethics & the animals' rights? Who says that strong UVB may not hurt their skin, but since they cannot talk, they can't tell us.
It is ALL revolving around money, & it is just not right at all. It makes me just want to cry it makes me so sad. In the end, it isn't us who suffers, but it's the animals.

Tracie

After reading through 152 plus posts in this thread...I kinda get the feeling that there are more ulterior motives at play then true concern for these animals...thats how its looking to me anyway.

I see both sides of the "debate", but then again...why IS there even a debate? So far the animals have not been proven incapable of breeding, they have not been proven to be sterile, they have not been proven to act any differently than dragons with scales and the project isn't far enough along to make serious finding statements if any.

I can see this debate taking more sustenance if you're talking about something that has already proven to be nothing but negative, but so far that point hasn't been reached yet. The people whom do have these animals have already answered as much as they are capable of at this point in time, they can't be asked to answer questions to which they don't have answers...yet.

There have been many scaleless reptile projects available over the years, not a single one of them has really made it to the main stream, not because the animals were unhealthy, sickly, "special need" or anything like it...but due more to the fact that most people find them "way too odd" to keep and breed. There are a select few whom cherish and enjoy working with those type of reptiles...and it's really nobody's business if they chose to do so. To each their own. I personally don't like any scaleless reptiles...they are too weird and odd for my tastes, but then again...what right do I have to chastise people who do cherish and enjoy them? Especially when nothing is stated as fact.....yet. If they thrive, live long and pain free lives, then whats the issue?

For an outsider like me looking in and catching this thread at where it is now, I get the feeling that most if not all of you on the "moral/ethical" side of this debate are only there because of the Dachius involvement with this project. It really looks to me as if any project they have an involvement in is a prime candidate for some major battle of wills.

Some posts back, a few people made the statement that questions have been asked and that the people whom have these animals have "run away" or are conveniently not answering any more questions.....would someone care to explain what requisite are they under to answer any questions? Better yet, why are there even questions being asked and answers demanded...the animals are not currently available for sale and its really nobody's business what they are doing with THEIR animals just as long as the animals are being well cared for and thrive. Now if you question seekers were purchasing animals....different scenario altogether...then obviously asking a few questions and getting straightforward answers should be fairly routine.

Once again for a outsider like me looking in, it would seem that catching the Dachius in a lie or being able to rebut any statements they make far more outweighs wanting to find out whether or not these particular animals can and will thrive in captivity for the long haul.

If you really indeed care for the well being of this particular morph/mutation/genetic freak/naked/odd/weird type of bearded dragon, then by all means look at it from all perspectives and not just the one which suits you best.

Maybe the issue here is that people are afraid of what will happen to these creatures in the hands of less than ethical breeders, and there are plenty of people on this forum that put at least the Dachiu's into that camp because of their actions on recent issues on this very forum.
The questions on the breeding concerns for this particular creature are also valid. Unlike snakes, beardies are quite physically aggressive when they breed, biting and using their claws to secure the correct response from their mate.
This particular forum is for discussion, and that's what we're doing, we're discussing something that is particularly bothersome.
Speaking for myself, I'd have a strong opinion about this no matter who had it, and I would be no less shy about expressing my opinion. Since a lot of opinion in this industry is based upon reputation and ethical considerations, its no big surprise that people may be reacting strongly in this case or that they are basing at least some of their opinions on past actions of the people involved.
You're right, scaleless reptiles have never reached the mainstream for hobbyists, and part of what has controlled this is the communities reaction to them. Since it is mainly the serious hobbyist, not the average petstore consumer, that pays the type of money normally requested for these types of animals, it actually says a lot about serious hobbyists that they have repeatedly on forums around the world expressed their strong reservations about exploiting these mutants.
Now, its up to the people who collect to decide what their reaction is going to be. Some will stay silent, others will be vocal in their opposition, a few will passionately advocate for this animal to be made available, and others will insist its not their concern.
My personal opinion is that if people want amphibians, they should get into amphibians instead of trying to turn reptiles into amphibians.

Originally Posted by Hues1

After reading through 152 plus posts in this thread...I kinda get the feeling that there are more ulterior motives at play then true concern for these animals...thats how its looking to me anyway.


For an outsider like me looking in and catching this thread at where it is now, I get the feeling that most if not all of you on the "moral/ethical" side of this debate are only there because of the Dachius involvement with this project. It really looks to me as if any project they have an involvement in is a prime candidate for some major battle of wills.


Once again for a outsider like me looking in, it would seem that catching the Dachius in a lie or being able to rebut any statements they make far more outweighs wanting to find out whether or not these particular animals can and will thrive in captivity for the long haul.

If you really indeed care for the well being of this particular morph/mutation/genetic freak/naked/odd/weird type of bearded dragon, then by all means look at it from all perspectives and not just the one which suits you best.

Alex, for a outsider looking in, you sure did hit the nail on the head.

Originally Posted by Hues1

For an outsider like me looking in and catching this thread at where it is now, I get the feeling that most if not all of you on the "moral/ethical" side of this debate are only there because of the Dachius involvement with this project. It really looks to me as if any project they have an involvement in is a prime candidate for some major battle of wills.

Alex-

I completely respect your opinion and your observations. But can anyone here honestly say that if this were me breeding these things, or Denise, or Sherri, or Michele, or Tracie (I apologize if I left anyone out), that somebody wouldn't be there chewing our rear ends for doing it? Sorry, but I don't think so.

In fact, I think were it someone like anyone listed above, we would be hauled off to the slaughterhouse, simply because the larger breeders are allowed to "get away with" a lot more than we ever would be.

kelli,yup and i believe what i said in the post that you quoted.if you read the beginning explanation in allessandro's first post in the other thread he said CLOSE relation but then he words things differently as more ppl get angry about the silkback "project".i also do not trust vickie.im pretty sure there is alot of money at stake for both of them. i sensed scrambling by both of them once they realized how many ppl were against the "project", and i am entitled to my opinion.

OK, glad we cleared that up. I quoted what you wrote to answer whiskersmom's question about where Alessandro was called a liar. And yes, of course you are entitled to your opinion. I respect you for debating so strongly about this topic and your feelings about it.

im curious..shouldn't warning points be issued for implying a swear word? i know i have received points for doing the same thing.i suppose it matters what side you are taking though?

You are referring to Valley Dragons use of the word assume where she capitalized the first three letters, making it "ASSume". That is something that is commonly done here (thanks Wes) and it is very different than calling someone a profane name or using profanity in a demeaning manner. If you were to tell another member to "Kiss my ASSume" then I would give you warning points for that. Just to make it crystal clear, I will provide links to all the posts you wrote which resulted in you receiving warning points for profanity:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...&postcount=252

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...&postcount=265

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...&postcount=192

Now do you see the difference? To say the moderators are biased and will not give warning points to those that are on "their side" in a discussion is just not true. If I went around here posting some of the things you did I would receive warning points as well. I know better than to write those things here though. I'm not saying that I don't think those things about certain people, it just means that I am able to exercise self control in these types of situations.