New price order?

Originally Posted by hhmoore

I understand what you are saying, Dan, and those people DO have to be aware of market trends and the economy. The fact that relatively few people are in a position to spend $1500-2500 on a baby snake is overshadowed by the fact that the market activity of the past few years makes them nervous about doing it.

Yep... and that is why I am (will be) breeding everything from corns to kings and balls to bloods.

I will have something for every budget.

Originally Posted by The BoidSmith

Breeding is the natural progression as you say. It's the ultimate challenge as a keeper to be able to succesfully breed the species in captivity. Similarly, zoo's reputation oftentimes lie more on the success of their breeding programs than on the diversity of the species they keep.

Not always anymore.

Pick an aspect of keeping a species in captivity. It gets easier when more is known and when the experiences of others can be used to forego certain variables in favor of what works. Combine this with technological advances that assist you in manipulating the environment the animal is kept in, their diet and health.

Breeding species X may not be as challenging as keeping species Y alive.

There was definitely a time when that was not true- but that was largely prior to the widespread advancement of knowledge that precipitated the advent of the highly successful hobbiest breeder. Given that the stance was largely held by those who were involved in animal husbandry as those advances were discovered and spread, the attitude was largely held by the most knolwedgeable people around and tended to be passed on well after it was entirely accurate.

There are numerous species that are fairly popular about which the knowledge of their husbandry and breeding is so conclusive and comprehensive that little individual skill or knowledge needs to be brought in on the part of the person attempting to have them produce. It's slightly more difficult than following the directions on a microwave dinner... but only slightly.

What is rarely addressed are the less easily defined aspects, the HOW is often straightforward enough, the when and why are rarely that well described. After so many decades where "Can I breed this? Is it even possible?" was the all consuming question among those knowledgeable enough to be engaged in the activity to begin with issues such as "Should I breed this? Is it the best possible pairing?" are not covered as well as I (for one anyway) would like.

The result of too much emphasis on "Can I?" over "Should I?" has been; bug eyed texas rats, no eyed alibino boas, bearded dragons that have a lifespan about one third that of a wild animal that makes it to adulthood, scaleless animals, hybrids that have a 20% hatch rate that don't make it past four months of life, pastel ball pythons that look like absolute garbage, mislabeled hybrid colubrids, tegus that can't bask properly because of their pigment deficiencies, the complete breakdown of subspecific or locale specific lines in several species, the propogation of a nasty skin eating fungal problem in cornsnakes, "grab bag" genetics where breedings throw up a party platter of recessive traits... And I firmly believe that it has slowed the efforts and avaliability of wild forms of many less commonly seen or more delicate species since the efforts of so many of the more experienced and better educated folks has been on producing day-glo combinations of color traits that are deterimental to natural selection.

To hell with breeding some varient of eighteen recessive traits in a ball python. Show me someone who has taken WC java snakes and turned the majority of them into stable long term captives that feed readily, show me someone that has an entire collection of rare anoles, show me someone that has predictable success rates breeding hellbenders and they are someone who's expertise and dedication I'll happily admire.

Not always anymore.

Pick an aspect of keeping a species in captivity. It gets easier when more is known and when the experiences of others can be used to forego certain variables in favor of what works. Combine this with technological advances that assist you in manipulating the environment the animal is kept in, their diet and health.

Breeding species X may not be as challenging as keeping species Y alive.
.

But that has always been the case, it's not something recent. For a "given species" (not across species) it's easier to keep it alive than to breed it. It's true that some individuals have skipped altogether the experience of keeping a species and learning all the aspects of husbandry jumping directly into breeding, some with incredible success even.

o hell with breeding some variant of eighteen recessive traits in a ball python. Show me someone who has taken WC java snakes and turned the majority of them into stable long term captives that feed readily, show me someone that has an entire collection of rare anoles, show me someone that has predictable success rates breeding hellbenders and they are someone who's expertise and dedication I'll happily admire.

And I couldn't agree more with you there. But that can be done either by institutions, where the source of income for the individual is external to the project, or by those that subsidize their hobby with a significant outside source of income.

Best



But

Originally Posted by The BoidSmith

But that has always been the case, it's not something recent. For a "given species" (not across species) it's easier to keep it alive than to breed it. It's true that some individuals have skipped altogether the experience of keeping a species and learning all the aspects of husbandry jumping directly into breeding, some with incredible success even.

I may not have made myself entirely clear...

The gap has widened. The viewpoint that breeding was the apex of acchievement originated during a time when the breeding triggers and husbandry parameters of even more commonly kept species were still being defined and success often required an experienced, detailed oriented individual and meticulous observation and an exhaustive process of trial and error. Forty years of those individuals compiling information has resulted in an understanding that is comprehensive enough to remove the majority of the more signifigant variables involved in breeding some species. It no longer requires the expertise it once did, it simply requires that an individual be able to follow a set of straightforward directions presented as absolutes.

To use the hypothetical species again, breeding species X has become easier and easier and easier while keeping species Y has not seen the same advances.

I'm often reminded of a quote from Jurassic Park when looking at these people who label themselves as breeders that barely know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to zoology, taxonomy, the few simple aspects of physics it takes to manipulate the environment inside a box...

I'll tell you the problem with the scientific power that you're using here: it didn't require any discipline to attain it. You read what others had done and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility for it. You stood on the shoulders of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as you could and before you even knew what you had you patented it and packaged it and slapped it on a plastic lunchbox, and now you're selling it, you want to sell it!

The price of my rat food has doubled in the last 16 months , my rat bedding has gone up 50% , it costs double for the gas to drive the 30 miles into town to get rack ( snake & rat ) supplies. The supplies themselves have increased as well. With everything getting more expensive to keep them and get them into optimal condition for breeding, why would I cut my prices by 50% or more as some have?

I can understand and agree to the supply and demand thing but I have a very hard time letting some yahoo that overbred his animals again set the prices because he got his litters before I did. Add in the increasing lack of selective breeding by more & more folks running snake mills while I try hard to produce outstanding babies and I don't see a reason why I can't charge slightly higher than market or what I think the babies should be priced at.

I also get that cheaper animals are easier to sell as well but not everything we look to produce are $100 animals. We took a good a bit of time looking for the animals that really struck our interest and fit our plans and paid a premium for them. I'm not seeing me cutting my nose off to spite my face just because Joe Blow lost his job or I might have to feed it 10 more times. I may sit on them longer but someone who appreciates the work we put into the project will pay asking price or pretty near it. I have been known to accept reasonable offers.

To answer your question tho. We have a $5k animal up for sale now. And no , I wouldn't take an offer of $2500 for her. She was 8 years of wanting and work to finally produce her. I won't undercut what I've found to be market nor will I take a lowball offer out of desperation or a need for quick cash. I don't even even want to sell her but life doesn't always play fair. If someone really wants her , then I'm sure something could be worked out but it will be on my terms.

Originally Posted by The BoidSmith

We are all aware the economy is going through rough times. People have trouble paying their mortgages or even filling their tank with gas. In spite of this we still see individuals offering animals for sale at outrageous prices. This is no criticism to the price itself, as you can ask whatever you want for your property. But really, how does asking in excess of $5,000 for a snake sit with everyone strictly from a business approach perspective? Even if you receive an offer for $2,500 for the animal, would you reject it? My point is that there seems to be a disconnection of some people with the current state of affairs and their approach to business. The days of the $10,000 snake are gone; at least that's my opinion. It seems to me that the current economic situation calls for a new price order.

If you dont have the money then dont buy. I dont think anyone in their right mind would pay 500 hundred for a snake but none of us are in our right mind.
If you fell you are going through rough times then buying any snake is the last thing to think about. But if yo have to I can sell you a 09 superpastel for 2500 with no money down and payments of just 25 dollars a month for the first 4 months. After 4 months the payment will increase to 500 a month for 5 months. PM me if you want to do it?

Originally Posted by Todd Thompson

I dont think anyone in their right mind would pay 500 hundred for a snake but none of us are in our right mind.

Excellent point!

Originally Posted by Todd Thompson

If you fell you are going through rough times then buying any snake is the last thing to think about.

Even better!

Originally Posted by Todd Thompson

But if yo have to I can sell you a 09 superpastel for 2500 with no money down and payments of just 25 dollars a month for the first 4 months. After 4 months the payment will increase to 500 a month for 5 months. PM me if you want to do it?

This is what I meant about the new price order. You can't enter the market with those prices anymore. Today you can buy superpastels all day long for $1,000, even for less at "wholesale" pices, that is "IF" you even sell them...

With everything getting more expensive to keep them and get them into optimal condition for breeding, why would I cut my prices by 50% or more as some have?

Because if not the "yahoos" as you say who can undercut the market will sell their snakes, and you'll get to keep them! As Jerry stated in another thread "money talks", although he was referring to the sellers the same "green" (as in $$$) principle goes both ways.

Best

Dan G.

Originally Posted by BryonsBoas

To answer your question tho. We have a $5k animal up for sale now. And no , I wouldn't take an offer of $2500 for her. She was 8 years of wanting and work to finally produce her. I won't undercut what I've found to be market nor will I take a lowball offer out of desperation or a need for quick cash. I don't even even want to sell her but life doesn't always play fair. If someone really wants her , then I'm sure something could be worked out but it will be on my terms.

This brings me to the topic of "price elasticity". In lower priced reptiles there is very little elasticity. This is particularly true with internet sales where shipping prices puts a fixed and heavy burden on individual snakes (multiple snakes can be shipped in one box thus diluting fixed costs). With higher priced snakes we have greater elasticity. Who can deny that $2,500 for a snake is still a good chunk of money? How many people would like to receive just that as a monthly salary? But there's another factor that comes into play, and it's your perceived value of your merchandise, and the need you may have for the money at a particular point in time. For a snake valued at 40 k there's even greater elasticity, and it wouldn't be unheard of for a person accepting an offer of 20 k.

Best

No one wants to see the market fall out that way, though. I actually do believe you can still sell $10,000 snakes. I certainly don't believe 'those days are gone' just because the economy is tanking. Actually, the opposite might be true. A $10,000 snake is an investment. It's not just a pet. The stock market isn't exactly a better bet than that, right now.

I also think that the economy problems are being felt very differently in different parts of the country. The effect where I'm at in Omaha really isn't that serious. It's a little tougher than it was, but most people are treading water just fine.

Yes, every year prices for various morphs drop. I have seen a slightly steeper drop this past year than the one before, but not outrageously so.

So, you get to keep the snakes? So, then you can sell them as yearlings next year. And so on. As long as you can afford to feed them, you won't lose money on them for a while if you keep them. If you keep them long enough, breed them, concede to a small price drop, and make it back selling the babies.

Once all the "yahoos" have sold their cheap snakes, there will still be people looking for more snakes. The problem I see going on is too many motivated sellers--people who NEED to sell a bunch of snakes fast. That's not a great situation to get into, and it's probably the reason I see so many people completely bailing from breeding BPs this year. That's a self-limiting issue too, though. Once everyone who's going to bail has bailed, everyone else will just ride out the problems.

I have ball pythons--they live for up to 30 years, and they don't eat THAT much. The recession isn't going to last forever, they never do. I'd be crazy to drop my prices way below market just because sales are slow. There is a demand for these snakes, and eventually they're going to get sold.

I don't see folks like Ralph Davis or NERD having problems selling their animals at excessively high prices, either--reputation and quality speak louder than a recession too.

I want to have a good foundation of income coming from ball pythons morphs so I can afford to work with rare species. I would never be able to do that if I couldn't make it a better than self-supporting business.

The way people talk lately, you'd think we were in the next Great Depression. No one I know is making dumplings because all they can afford is a bag of flour--they're complaining because they have to wait until next week to pick up that new PS3 game. Perspective. :P

Originally Posted by TripleMoonsExotic

This is what I did with my Leopard Geckos. I saw the Leo market starting to tank with the Macks a few years ago and made the decision to just keep what I liked the most and not worry about what the newest trend was. I adore my small, select group of Leos and am very happy with my decision.

I wish more people would do what you did. The leopard gecko market is WAY super-saturated right now and there are too many being produced. I don't keep up with the ball python market these days, but I do know that it is extremely difficult to sell leopard geckos right now. Part of it is that too many people are breeding them, and also a couple of the "bigger" breeders are WAY overproducing the morphs, therefore causing major price drops. The other part of it is most definitely the economy IMO. The Europeans still buy. I know one other US. breeder that has not had a domestic leo sale since May.