Reasonable length of time for a warranty period?

The impression you give by not giving a warranty is that you don't have faith in your animals. This is irregardless of the actual condition of your animals.

While an "extended warranty" for an additional fee works in some industries, it will not work with 80% of the reptile purchasers online. This is because of the soft sell type of industry that the pet trade is.

You will find some that will purchase your animals at a cheaper rate due to no guarantees. This will not stop them from trying to get their money back if an animal dies. It will not stop them from posting on places like the BOI if their animal dies. Customers expect a certain level of customer service even when you state there is no guarantee. My personal opinion is that those customers that price shop excessively usually turn into more of a problem customer than those that will spend a little more money.

Your logic will be to argue that you explained there was no guarantee. In the arena of public opinion this will not change the view of your policies. Customer relations have little to do with logical thought process but rather impressions

This pertains to retail customers. Wholesale customers are a different matter and more open to your suggest pricing schedules.

Brian, I am going to pick apart your post a bit if you don't mind, well, even if you do

Let me qualify one thing real quick, I am not talking about Rich.

I know that you are not talking about Rich specifically, but he was the example you brought up, so that is the example I've been sticking with.

There are people advertising on this site, and talked about in the forums who buy the exact same animals I buy (from the same source) or even buy animals from me. Take them back to their beautiful pet stores and charge 3 times what I do. There are others who take them home and take nice pictures on them, post them on the web, and sell them at 100-200% profit. That extra profit isn't because they have taken any better care of the animals than I have (hell sometimes they only got them an hour before) it's because they are willing to bet they can offer a nice guarantee and sell the animal or because people will pay more for their guarantee or will pay more because they can then say "it's __________ stock." NO IT'S NOT!!!

Okay, I guess my question to most of this is, SO WHAT? It is generally pretty common knowledge that pet stores don't breed most of their own animals(with some exceptions of course) and that they buy these animals from wholesalers, jobbers, importers, breeders, etc. And yes, pet stores will generally charge much higher prices than the rest of us, but not ALL of that is pure profit. A store has high overhead that most jobbers and internet brokers won't have. And yes, OF COURSE those other people that order are going to charge double or more the wholesale cost. What is surprising there? To them it is a job, and you don't make money by selling everything for cost.

Now, I don't know about YOU, but I am not going to pay more for a snake because it is "Peter Pet's Emporium" stock. The ONLY store I would consider paying more for the name is with ProExotics, but that is because they breed alot of their own stock AND they stand behind what they sell.

But their are several others out there BIG NAMES, who buy hundreds of animals every year from other breeders and then sell them as their own stock.

Care to name names? I am aware of many larger facilities/breeders sometimes buying other animals, but I've never seen them advertised as their own offspring. But I guess I'm blind or missing out. I'm not saying these kinds of things don't happen, but it is usually the other way around.

For instance: I am a Green Tree Python person. There are certain breeders that are considered THE breeders to buy from. People like Trooper Walsh, Greg Maxwell, Eugene Bessette, and so on. Now, I've seen people get in fresh import chondros and try to sell them as stock from these bigger breeders to move them faster or charge more. THAT is what I typically see going on. I haven't seen breeders getting animals from other people then selling them as their own.

It's, I don't trust Joe customer, and I don't have time to determine what Joe customer did to kill the animals. I teach full time, have two kids, 200 breeder animals, and many wholesale accounts on top of that to take care of. So it's worth it to me to charge a little less and not have to worry about how Joe customer listened to everything I said about the corn snake, forgot it, and then listened to everything the idiot at the pet store told him about it, followed those incorrect directions, killed the snake, and wants to whine to me about how I should replace it.

As it's been stated, if you don't wish to offer a guarantee, then fine, DON'T. But you need to understand that price is NOT a product of a guarantee. Price is based on time, cost, quality, and what you feel you can charge for the animal. A guarantee is a service provided to the customer at no cost.

If you want to sell snow corns for $20 with no guarantees, sell them for $20 with no guarantees. I know several people that DO sell them for $20 WITH a guarantee. The guarantee you offer is also up to YOU. However, to think that someone like Rich charges $30 for them to cover his guarantee is ridiculous. He and other breeders charge for the quality, time, effort, and money put into the animals they produce.

Now, I have bought animals at shows and I generally don't EXPECT them to be giving me a guarantee, and yes, I can look at snakes, geckos, turtles, and most other herps and have an idea for their health. However, you can't see what's going on inside and if I buy a fat-tail gecko that looked outwardly alright, should I be happy when I get it home, it refuses to eat, and I find it's feces full of pin and roundworms? That is not something someone generally can see on the outside of the animal unless it's progressed a good bit. Now, in this instance, should I just say, oh well, it's my fault I looked at him first. Or should I be mad that I just bought an animal that outwardly looked decent, but inside was full of bugs from a dealer who doesn't want anything to do with me after he got my cash?

Rob, it's not so much that I "don't give a crap."

IN my opinion, yes it is. You don't want to deal with a customer post-sale. You aren't overly concerned whether or not that person does well with the animal or not. All you want is for the customers to hand you money and leave you alone. And are you THAT busy that you couldn't take some time to answer or help a concerned customer? I have alot going on in my life too, but if one of my customers calls me with a problem, you better believe I will make as much time possible to help them out. Your attitude appears to be, "well, I told them once what to do, not my fault you didn't listen." What kind of customer service is that?

Guarantee and price are not directly related to one another...

Rather they are both a product of the confidence a seller has in the quality of their animal. People who are confident about an animal's health, doesn't matter if they produced it or are reselling/brokering it, offer guarantees as is appropriate to the species.

If you actually talk to your customers before making a sale, you can be quite confident that they aren't going to do anything that would likely bring about instantaneous death... or pretty much anyway... a bit of friendly banter surrounding the sale when a guarantee is offered and it's easy to develop an idea of what you are dealing with...

Charging for a guarantee says a lot about the confidence (lack of) you have in your animals... That you expect signifigant enough losses to need to recoup the expense of replacements.

Most animals sold directly at shows are sold "as is", there can be a price break with this, but that is related more to the "cash and carry" attitude that prevails rather than the lack of guarantees.

Wholesale animals generally have no guarantees because it is anticipated that there will be a certain percentage of loss and in THIS instance, the price reflects that anticipation.

Insurance companies really don't make their money by charging you... they make it by turning around and investing the money paid. As I'm (mostly) certain Dianne can verify, Insurance Companies pay out more in claims than they collect in the money paid for policies, this invalidates your comments comparing a health guarantee to insurance.

The guarantee is an indicator of the confidence you have in your animals, high confidence, long guarantee... Low confidence (either because of quality OR the nature of the animal; cham and amphib guarantees are usually a bit different than snakes, etc.), shorter or no guarantee. A guarantee DOES make you money, but not by charging for it anticipating problems... by making customers more comfortable and increasing total sales. Does it mean you will eventually (likely) eat the cost of an animal or two because of problems? Yes it does... but it's also what gives you a better reputation and allows you to sell far more animals before, between and after the occasional loss. Unless you are selling your animals at below production costs or have such horrible quality that signifigant percentages are returned, the rare replacement will not damage you unduly.

Just as a bit of a side note, I'm pretty sure Pro Exotics no longer has a retail facility. It had been down one end of the breeding facility in Littleton, I was last there in September or October and was told they were closing "next month" to focus more on their internet based sales. I haven't gone down since, assuming they were closed.

Well, with all that being said, the one thing that I really took to heart was what Daniel said. He's right, it won't matter to Joe customer that I explained to him why my snow corn was so much cheaper than everyone elses when he kills it. Even if he signs a statement showing that he understands that the animal comes w/ no guarantee. A week later after he has taken it home, and the pet store told it would be ok to put it on corncob (because they were out of aspen), it ingests the corncob and dies, he'll still want me to replace it. OK, so from now on my snow corns cost $30 and come with a 7 day guarantee.

But, you still have not convinced me that guarantees and warranties are not just insurance that we all pay for. I buy the fact that we pay for quality, and that quality products usually come with better guarantees. But we do pay for it, one way or the other. And Seamus, your argument about how they make their money is fine, except, then why do they charge different rates for the two guys in my example. The 350lb chain smoker is an imported chameleon and the 145lb marrathon runner is a yearling c.b. cornsnake, that's why.

Rob, I can't name names w/o damaging business realtionships. But, I'll give you a better example. About a year ago, I was doing the Tampa show and I had the first shipment of the year of baby savannah monitors. Two "Big Time" dealers came over and bought a bunch of those babies from me, took them back to their booths, and put them on sale. I actually had people come back and say, "yeah your's are cheaper, but I got this from ___ _______." It was all I could do not to laugh in thier face. At the same show, I delivered 100 w.c. ball pythons to a fairly well known python breeder, he took the snakes picked the ticks off of them and put them on sale for $45. I was selling the same snakes for $15 at the same show. But people were happy to pay him more because they had heard of him before. Now, don't get me wrong, I sold out too, but why pay more for the same snake?

I guess Joe customer really is willing to pay more for piece of mind. If he wasn't why would anyone pay 40-100k for a Lexus when a Toyota is basically the same car and costs half as much.

One final question for you guys: Is it ok then, to admit that I don't have much confidence in a particular animal and refuse to give a warranty? I'll give an example, pick any commonly imported chameleon, I sell tons of them. But I warn people up front exactly what they are getting themselves into and tell them there's about a 50/50 chance that the animal may die. I get the impression that some of you might say, "no it's never ok to sell an animal like that." And I'd like to better understand your thinking, as every animal currently in captivity can be traced back to the wild.

Thanks, really loving this discussion, Brian

p.s. Rob, my stance in this discussion DOES NOT necessarily reflect my stance on the way I sell all my animals. I just want to explore this avenue as it is the way I tipically BUY animals.

Import sales. I think it's based upon who you are selling to. If you are going to a retail customer it's smarter business wise (my opinion) to acclimate the animal and monitor it for a while. Sell only what you feel are animals that are hardy enough to last when given to the retail customer. Your chance of returns and building a bad reputation are less and the market will bear the higher prices. Repeat sales will be higher as the new addict ... er I mean, keeper has success and comes back for another fix... er I mean reptile

Selling to wholesalers/experienced keepers you can get away with turning the animals quicker since the new owner has experience acclimating the animals. Therefore they are somewhat more aware of what to expect in the long term.

Most important is to properly represent the animal.

But, you still have not convinced me that guarantees and warranties are not just insurance that we all pay for.

I guess if noone has yet, then no one will. There are some breeders that charge more than what someone like Rich would, and offer a smaller guarantee(and pet stores usually have a 24-48 hour guarantee, if that and look what THEY charge), and some that charge less that offer the same. Price is based on alot of factors, but the guarantee period is not one of them.

Price is based on your perception of the animal's monetary value(which includes market consditions, work involved, expense involved, personal opinion, etc.).

When I first started selling geckos, I offered a 24 hour guarantee and charged $10-20 OVER the average market price for many of the morphs I produced, but never really had people question my pricing structure when they bought from me. Why did I charge that much? Because I felt they were WORTH IT.

Now that I've mostly gotten out of geckos and am working with arboreal boids and much trial and error and learning over the years, I will be offering longer guarantees, but my prices aren't going to be jacked up to reflect that. It is simply customer service and if there is a loss in that period, well, that is the cost of doing business. But even when I only had the 24 hour guarantee, I would STILL be there to help with any concerns, and replace animals if I need to.

For example, I had a woman that called me over a MONTH after buying a gecko at a show from me. The gecko had stopped eating and was getting thin. I spent HOURS on the phone with her giving her ideas and different food options to try and eventually we got him eating and now he's doing great again. But had he died or if she wanted, I would have GLADLY replaced or refunded the cost for her. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but in my book, I am happy to help my customers long term because 1)They are more willing to come back and/or refer business if you treat them right and 2) that is how I would want someone to treat me.

Two "Big Time" dealers came over and bought a bunch of those babies from me, took them back to their booths, and put them on sale. I actually had people come back and say, "yeah your's are cheaper, but I got this from ___ _______."

Okay, again, SO WHAT? I can tell you why they were willing to pay more from that person.
1) They had probably heard of them. And many people are more willing to spend money with someone they have heard good things about than someone they don't know. I would honestly rather spend $1000 with Eugene Bessette for a chondro that Jimmy John-John is selling for $350 because I know the kind of reputation Eugene has, meanwhile I have NO clue about Jimmy. However, that doesn't have anything to do with the guarantee. It is because Eugene is someone I can rest assured I will get a good animal from, while Jimmy John-John is an unknown.
2) You were selling them well below what the others were and what they were probably used to seeing. That brings in the "too good to be true" problem with super low prices. They see a box of savannas or ball pythons for $15-20/ea and they think, fresh import, sick, about to die, etc.

But remember, since you sold out, that means there are plenty of people who WILL spend less. It's the buyer's choice who they buy from. And plus, if the other vendors at least pulled the ticks off the snakes they got from you, to me that shows they should have gotten the higher price for at least having the sense to do that at all.

Is it ok then, to admit that I don't have much confidence in a particular animal and refuse to give a warranty?

I think on a per situation basis, yes it is generally okay as long as you are upfront about your reasons why. I will agree that fresh imported chameleons are a 50/50 animal. Been there, played that game. However, if you get in a shipment, and half of the animals are barely alive, I don't think you should sell those sick ones at all to your customers with or without a guarantee as that is an almost immediate recipe for their failure.

And this isn't about import versus CB, so please don't try to bring it up in this thread. That is an old and ongoing argument that will never end.

p.s. Rob, my stance in this discussion DOES NOT necessarily reflect my stance on the way I sell all my animals. I just want to explore this avenue as it is the way I tipically BUY animals.

Glad to see this, however given some of your comments, you have to understand why I question your motives

Seamus: Insurance companies really don't make their money by charging you... they make it by turning around and investing the money paid. As I'm (mostly) certain Dianne can verify, Insurance Companies pay out more in claims than they collect in the money paid for policies, this invalidates your comments comparing a health guarantee to insurance.

That's correct. The majority of profits by insurance companies are from investing the money they receive in premiums. Allow me to go insurance agent for a bit. For example, my specialty is commercial trucks (rigs, dump trucks, etc.). On average they pay between $2,000 and $10,000 per year in premiums - depending on the coverages and limits they require. Now, the minimum liability limit in VA is $750,000 - the absolute least that they can carry for public protection. With the sue-happy atmosphere these days and juries regularly awarding more than the policy limit (and way more than the premium taken in), companies are forced to pay those pooled premiums out on losses. FWIW, most accidents with large trucks, regardless of who was at fault, the trucker's policy almost always pays out because it invariably ends up in court and the judge awards the smaller vehicle - rarely this isn't the case, rarely. If a driver is prone to speeding tickets, other moving violations and accidents, he will pay more for the same limits as someone with a clean record. If he's in a high traffic area (i.e. a city) or travels regularly through large cities, he will pay more because of the higher likelihood of an accident and then a payoff.

Brian: then why do they charge different rates for the two guys in my example. The 350lb chain smoker is an imported chameleon and the 145lb marrathon runner is a yearling c.b. cornsnake

This is the same as the trucking rates are figured. The 350 lb, chain smoker is generally going to have more health problems, meaning his health or life insurance is going to pay out more over his lifetime (or on his death) - often more than any premiums taken in over his entire life. The 145 lb marathon runner is most likely eatting right, taking better care of himself, and obviously exercising. He isn't going to use near the amount of medical expenses as the other guy. His premiums will therefore be lower overall because he 'probably' won't use even what he's paid into insurance.

Now, to bring this all back around to the critters. Most people purchasing at shows expect the animals to be sold 'as is' just as Seamus said. Even so, if it kills over the very next day, that customer is going to look up that seller and want to know what gives. If they have problems getting it feeding or other health problems, they're going to want to at least talk to the person they got it from to get ideas on how to fix the problem. A perfect example from my own experience - my first Solomon Island ground boa. I purchased him at a show as captive bred (as the show was advertised as captive bred only). The person I purchased him from failed to inform me he was wild caught. Okay, no problem when I found out, BUT the snake wouldn't eat - which the guy swore it was feeding on geckos and small anoles. I tried the small anole - no luck - I tried two kinds of feeder geckos in two different sizes each - no luck. I tried every kind of prey item and trick I could imagine. I resorted to assist feeding...and have continued to do so to this day because he will not eat completely willingly. However, if I scent a pinkie mouse and place it in his mouth, he'll swallow it and the next one with no problem. The guy I bought him from was less than helpful, getting to down right rude when I called him a second time for advise. Never once did I ask for a refund or exchange, just advise. I ended up getting help from Jim Kavney, who I'd purchased a wc female from, but who gladly told me everything he could. And also from Jerry Conway (fantastic guy!), who I had bought nothing from but who allowed me to pick his brain for ideas. Needless to say, any future SIGB's will be purchased from one of these two men - sight unseen - because they helped me when I needed it.

To sum it up (I know - FINALLY!) The price is on the quality of the animal, the faith the seller has in it and the customer service he/she provides not any guaranty the seller does or doesn't supply. And yeah, most of us will buy from someone we're familiar with before someone we don't know - even when paying more for the same animal because we have faith in that person that they won't leave us hanging out to dry.

Dianne

Dianne, I think you made my point for me.

he 'probably' won't use even what he's paid into insurance.

If you're not going to need the warranty, why pay for it? A snow corn is a snow corn 99% of the time. I know I can look at a corn snake and tell it's general state of health inside of a minute. So I, personally, am not going to pay an $10 for basically the same snake from some BIG NAME breeder.

Rob,

I would honestly rather spend $1000 with Eugene Bessette for a chondro that Jimmy John-John is selling for $350 because I know the kind of reputation Eugene has, meanwhile I have NO clue about Jimmy.

Wow, you would spend an extra $650 based on reputation! It's still just a snake man. Eugene's stuff is nice but they don't poop gold or anything. Wow, I wish my budget allowed for that kind of loyalty. Again, personally, I would rather take an objective look at Jimmy John-John's stuff, make an evaluation based upon my experience and knowledge and then if I judged his animals of acceptable quality spend my $1000 and get 3 snakes instead of one. Even if one died, I'm a snake better off than you.

It's still just a snake man. Eugene's stuff is nice but they don't poop gold or anything.

Brian,

Retail customers don't always buy based upon logic. This is why companies offer "no limit" calling plans, why casino's use chips instead of money (studies have shown that people will freely spend chips because they are not "real" money), ISP's offer unlimited dial up connections, and why AOL offers A MILLION FREE HOURS as a promo. You have to appease the psychological part of the purchase by easing any fears that they have that their going to get "stuck" with a bad snake. Again this is retail customers and wouldn't apply to wholesalers who would trust in their own knowledge of the herp to find a "good deal" in a batch of stuff.

Makes sense, I like the way you think.