To Jump or Not To Jump

I'll just be dodging frantically back and forth to escape the knife wielding Mother behind the shower curtain while I post...

There's a difference between terms related directly to pigment and terms related to an exact morph. In some species these may appear to be the same thing for some morphs but not all.

Albino, Hypomelanistic, Hyperxanthic, Axanthic, Leusistic... these terms are actually specific to the phenotype in their dictionary definitions and only related to genotypes when a specific species/strain is mentioned, as there can be different causes for the deviation in appearance.

Terms like: "Pastel" "Screamer" "High Yellow" "Blazin" "Clown" "Jungle" "Super-Anything" "Chocolate" "Moustached" "Spider" "Ladderback" "Circleback" "Reduced pattern" "Fading" "Blood Red" "Sunset Red" "Crisp" "piebald" and on and on and on in a never ending list... They are used, specific to a reptile species, to describe not only the phenotype but the genotype of the animal. Using a term that denotes a genotype when the genotype is not present is fraudulent.

Selling animals under a fradulent label when that label is accompanied by a price increase is ethically and morally incorrect. It's scamming potential buyers into believeing they are buying something they are not and it is misrepresenting the animal.

Like it or not, "Pastel" even by itself reffrences a specific morph, it indicates a specific genotype that the animal in question does not have. Since the animal does not have it but Brian will be using the label, Brian will be misrepresenting this animal.

I can't write an ad selling my "Piebald Ball Python" and then just tell people IF they ask, that "It's not really what the industry reccognizes as piebald, it's just this animal I have named piebald, but there's really no such thing as an industry standard anyway because there's always a possibility that it's parents, who are still in africa and probably never so much as been seen by a human being might have been real piebalds anyway and besides the dictionary just says piebald is different colors and it's brown and black, now give me forty times what I paid for it because it has a pretty name." It would still be fraud, it would still be misleading, it would still be ripping people off.

Jesse Underhill sent some normal snakes out as something they clearly were not, after selling them as something they clearly were not...

Brian proposes to send out some normal snakes as something they clearly are not after selling them as something they clearly are not...

Brian = Jesse?

An extreme statement to make and I really don't think Brian is scum... I just think he's proposing to deccieve his customers in order to increase his profits.

I have no problem with selling an animal for any amount the seller thinks it's worth... Provided it's properly represented (P.E. selling point).

If it's misrepresented, it gives me the impression that the seller KNEW it wasn't worth the higher than "normal price" and had to add some quick B.S. in order to try and justify the cost to potentially ignorant buyers.

Basically, if the appearance is worth $200, then why does the misleading label of Pastel have to be applied?

Seamus,

I feel that there are way to many untrustworthy people in the herp industry seeling animals labeled as morphs that are not any kind of morph at all. For a few weeks I would post the con-artists ads in the ball forum and usualy explain why I thought the ad was B.S. I soon after quit posting the ads due to all the harrassment I got via pm and email. I didnt back down, but it was brought to my attention I may have been wrong for posting names in the threads I started.

Many people have different favorites when it comes to reptiles, mine happens to be the python regius. This is on of the reasons I get irrated when I see people calling their balls something they are not.

After I signed up for fauna and have been befriended by many members, I also started to see alot of bad in some people. After I was scammed a few times, I started a stupid little list. On this list I have the names of people that LIE, cheat, steal, and rip others off. Some of the people on this list are very well known as cheats, others are not. Also included on this list are people that put made up names on snakes, as well as CALL THE ANIMAL BY THE NAME OF A PROVEN MORPH WHEN IT IS NOT.

To answer your question, I feel it is a good idea to point out ALL of the fishy ads, ie price too low, animal has no appearance of what it is described as, etc....From what I have seen, most of the cheats prefer to sell "hets" or abarent animals as morphs.

And as far as this normal being pastel, its a JOKE, whether its kept, traded,eaten, or even sold for $200, ITS NORMAL. These are the types of people that will never be dealt with by me.

Alot of people spend too much time and money to prove out these genitic mutations, just to have you label your normal snake as a morph. If you think that pastel is just a word to describe your normal, FIND ANOTHER ONE, ( pretty, odd looking, NORMAL, different, attractive.....)

I will stay away from this thread if at all possible as it kinda gets to me, But to answer the question at hand again, If a fishy ad is spotted, bring it to light for all to see, if it is in fact a scam, then it will be easier for people to see.

Terms like: "Pastel" "Screamer" "High Yellow" "Blazin" "Clown" "Jungle" "Super-Anything" "Chocolate" "Moustached" "Spider" "Ladderback" "Circleback" "Reduced pattern" "Fading" "Blood Red" "Sunset Red" "Crisp" "piebald" and on and on and on in a never ending list... They are used, specific to a reptile species, to describe not only the phenotype but the genotype of the animal. Using a term that denotes a genotype when the genotype is not present is fraudulent.

Seamus, did you read that list?!?!?!

Screamer - ok what genotype is screamer?

High Yellow - you've got to be kidding me?

Reduced pattern - define reduced since I've sure it's right there in the Brotherhood of the Ball handbook. Exactly how much does the pattern have to be reduced, give me a percentage.

Crisp -??????? Ghees, I thought we were talking about live snakes, not an Alabama BBQ?


Secondly, Piebald IS A GENETIC TERM. While you guys are out doing all this research perhaps you should pick up a basic genetics text. That is why it is applied to both the pheno and genotype.

I have no problem with terms such as "clown" or "jungle" being used. Those words are not adjectives, as such they bring no inherant meaning to the table. Pastel is an adjective and does bring to mind a certain hue/range of color.

Try this, take a person who knows nothing about ball pythons and show them one, let them look it over and become familiar with it. Next give them a piece a paper and ask them to describe what they think a pastel ball looks like. When they finish up with that one, ask then to describe a clown ball. Which definition do you think they will have the harder time with?

Selling animals under a fradulent label when that label is accompanied by a price increase is ethically and morally incorrect. It's scamming potential buyers into believeing they are buying something they are not and it is misrepresenting the animal.

A. The snake is not for sale.
B. If I decide to sell the snake, I will not mark this snake as a "Pastel Jungle" the industry name for the morph or genotype and phenotype you are so desperate to defend.

Basically, if the appearance is worth $200, then why does the misleading label of Pastel have to be applied?

Well damn Seamus, according to your list there, there's nothing I can call it. Pastel is taken, screamer is out, high yellow... no that's called already. Superpretty....er.. no that wont work. Damn, ok the name I'm using is "REALLY CRAPPY LOOKING BALL PYTHON THAT SEAMUS AND TOM THINK IS A STEAMING DOG TURD AND NOT WORTH MORE THAN 50 BUCKS", will that work, or do you think I need to be more specific. Hope not, because I'm not even sure I can get that on a deli cup.

Piebald is an adjective and it's just a description of something patchy and/or multicolored.

piebald

adj : having sections or patches colored differently and usually brightly; "a jester dressed in motley"; "the painted desert,"; "a particolored dress"; "a piebald horse"; "pied daisies" [syn: motley, multicolor, culticolour, multicolored, multicoloured, painted, particolored, particoloured, pied, varicolored, varicoloured]

Regards.

Alvaro, now that's the way to make an arguement. But, piebald is also a genetic term (when I get to school tomorrow I'll look it up and give you the definition out of my genetics text form college), I belive piebaldism is the name applied to the condition of having patches of skin which lack chromatophores (cells make make pigment). I'll check it tomorrow. Now, if you can find the term "pastel" in a genetics text somewhere and then next to it have the description of Tom's snake.... hey, I can eat crow with the best of em.

Also, thought I'd throw up another pic of my "normal" ball python. And remember these sitting with it were picked out of 500 while looking for the best colored individuals.

Here is a list of Proven Mutations of the Ball Python.

T-Albino
Ghost (Hypomelanistic)
T+Albino (Caramel Albino)
Axanthic
Pastel Jungle
Piebald
Super Pastel Jungle
Spider Webbed
Clown
Genetic Stripe
Mojave
Woma Tiger
Platinum
Pinstripe
Bumble Bee (Pastel-Spider?)
Spot-Nosed
Snow (Axanthic-Albino)
Caramel Glow (Albino-Ghost)
*probably added this year*
Killer Bee (Super Pastel-Spider?)
Albino Spider

I took almost all but 2 of these from Graziani's website. These are the only proven mutations, althought their probably is more popping out this year that I have not heard of.
Some terms are known to be descriptive such as screamer and high yellow, or beautiful, etc... But when you hear Spider, you know your talking about Spider Webbed. When you hear Pied you understand Piebald. When you hear Woma Ball, you understand it as the Woma Tiger. When you hear Caramel Albino, you understand it as a T+Albino and not a snake that you spilled some candy on or had a slight different caramel coloration then other albinos you have seen. Until a true Ghost is hatched out we understand Ghost as Hypomelanistic, not your version of it looks kinda hypo compared to a normal. As far as the Bees and Spider's go, we also dont expect to be buying insects when one purchases these. When one hears Pastel they expect to see a Pastel Jungle. If one hears "Snow" they dont expect that it was hatched outside in the winter... So on and so forth. If you would read the posts thouroughly I did state that you do have beuatiful Ball's (dont you dare take that out of context, haha), but to me if they were females would only be worth $50.00. I have quite a few and I am really not interested in normals of small size. If they were males they would have no value to me at all. It is a different story for someone that is just looking for a good looking pet and if that one strikes them as the one, they probably would pay double or even more for it. Hopefully this can clear up what is actually going on in the Ball industry to let you know what terms represent PROVEN MUTATIONS.
Thanks, Tom Baker

Tom, thanks for the list. There are a couple there I'd never hear of: spot nosed, bumble bee, carmel glow, and of course the last two. In addition, I always thought spider webbed was just "spider."

But when you hear Spider, you know your talking about Spider Webbed. When you hear Pied you understand Piebald. When you hear Woma Ball, you understand it as the Woma Tiger. When you hear Caramel Albino, you understand it as a T+Albino and not a snake that you spilled some candy on or had a slight different caramel coloration then other albinos you have seen

That's where you run into a problem, the "you understand"'s. My point is most people don't understand! Most people have no freaking clue what those things mean. YOU understand, but you are the extreme case senario. My contention is that most people walking around at a reptile show would not understand all of those terms. Now, if you made it a show for The Brotherhood of the Ball members only, then, yes everyone would understand.

Out of 1000 people RANDOMLY SELECTED at the upcoming Daytona Expo, what percentage do you think could quote your definition of Pastel Jungle? Better yet - pastel ball python? I think 20-30% would be high. Especially had we asked before discussing it here. That's my point: you and the Brotherhood of the Ball are not the "norm." The norm is an 18 yr old guy with $250 burning a hole in his pocket, that's wants a "cool looking snake."

And she was only $300 dollars!

Erin B.

But, piebald is also a genetic term (when I get to school tomorrow I'll look it up and give you the definition out of my genetics text form college), I belive piebaldism is the name applied to the condition of having patches of skin which lack chromatophores (cells make make pigment). I'll check it tomorrow.

Brian,

And you are right, piebald is also a genetic term coined after an animal showing "sections or patches colored differently". Regrettably Pastel is also a genetic name that applies to several species such as minks, parrotlets, cockatiels, bettas, and guppies among them.

You know who else uses the term Pastel as a synonimous for Pastel Jungle?

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/matrix/squares.asp

Regards.

There are a couple of things I'd really like to know. Who put Seamus in charge? Who made Tom the guy who let's us know proper terminolgy for all currently existing ball python morphs and who is and is not allowed to use those terms?

I never asked anyone to tell my what is morally correct , much less insist that their definition was the only one that could be used. I'm pretty sure that my moral compass is working well even though it may not point in exactly the same direction as the rest of yours. HMMMMM, maybe if I was wont to cram it down someone's throat if they disagreed with me I could be as good as you guys are at informing everyone what is right and what is wrong. But, sad to say it, I just don't want the job. And that combined with the fact that I, unlike some of you-apparently, am not all knowing, makes me leary of taking on such responsibility.

Why is everyone ASSUMING that if Brian sells this snake he will scam some poor newbie? Damn people, are you all getting enough oxegen way up there on those HIGH HIGH, TOUCH THE SKY, HORSES of yours?

It's his snake. He thinks it looks pastel. That's it and you all are so bent out of shape that this is going on what, 10 pages now?

He hasn't claimed it's a genitically inheritable trait. He has stated that were he to sell it he would not claim it was. As long as he doesn't have a reputation for scamming why are you all, and I guess I mean the brotherhood of the balls, so damned uptight about it. It's a cool looking sort of pastel-like snake. Did I miss a meeting of "THE I KNOW ALL ABOUT SNAKES SO MY OPINION IS THE ONLY RIGHT OPINION" club? What's with that? I know a lot and I want to know everything too, how do I join?

I'm not sure but Seamus, haven't you even posted that in this business it's caveat imperitor? If the buyer needs to beware, and in this case there is NO indication that some imaginary buyer would need to be, quite the opposite in fact, then why are you so bent?

Brian has gone out of his way to say that he isn't selling any inheritable morph. Is there some reason I don't know about that should make me doubt his word? If not, then what he does and how he does it is his business and his business alone.

Wes Pollock