To Jump or Not To Jump

I just hand picked about 35 baby balls, and several of them are what I will sell as "pastel." To me pastel is just a term used to describe a high contrast ball with lighter than normal coloring.

"Pastel" is also a term used to describe a genetic morph though...

Such as the "Pastel Blondes" that Royal Matrix used to produce...

It IS a trait that is genetic...

You don't find it dishonest to utilize a name that has been accepted as an industry standard for a genetic morph on something that's simply slightly similar?

Personally I see that as being deceptive bordering on fradulent, you can ascribe whatever fool name you want to a pattern but when you use one that is widely reccognized as being indicative of a reccessive trait, you're lying to your customers.

I could name my individual animals... rather than being "The big one who keeps trying to bite my face off." I could name them things like "Het for Piebald"... sure it's just what I call the individual animal, but if I were to try and sell it, it would be seriously misrepresentive.

Tying this in to the original post/question about when it is and is not acceptable to post something about suspicious actions...

We've acknowledged that reputation of the seller plays a huge role and that reccent behaviors can cause suspicions as well (Buying a 50 lot of normal balls one week, advertising "possible hets" the next as an example)...

There have been a few instances where someone posted on the BOI describing a fairly minor deal gone wrong or deal called off... Gilbert Thompson for instance... Where the actions didn't seem like that big a deal (not following through after comitting to a sale) until it turned out he'd been doing it for a long time to a lot of people, jerking sellers around left and right.

Had someone (I'm too lazy to go check who) not posted that initial complaint asking if anyone else had similar experiences, Gilbert might still be doing it to people who each believe it to be an isolated event.

So there's a potential upside to jumping early and detailing minor inconveniences, but the downside is ending up in a drawn out argument over trivial matters and potentially saying negative things about total innocents.

Thank you all for your thoughts on the matter, I'm still on the fence myself, but seeing the opinions of others (most of which seem to be up in the air still like mine) has given some interesting perspective to the issue.

Seamus, "pastel" is a term, nothing more. That's my point. There is NO set definition for the term "pastel." The word is an adjective. You can't say industry standard because there isn't one. Do you really think all the "okeetee" corns produced and sold each year can really be traced back to the hunt club. I had bloodlines that I could trace back there at one point, but it got to the point of ridiculous when the customers didn't even know what I was talking about when I mentioned the hunt club.

Bloodlines are great, but who's to say that my pastels aren't genetic also. Now, to qualify myself, I am very honest with all my customers and tell them pastel to me is just how the snake looks, it is meant to imply that the pastel phenotype is what the snakes are displaying, and is in no way any type of a proven genotype or bloodline. Albino is easy to see, hypo, pastel, screamer, etc. are all judgement calls.

Albino is easy to see, hypo, pastel, screamer, etc. are all judgement calls

Albino, hypomelanistic, axanthic and the like are all terms that are related directly to the animal's biology/physiology and, being understood to be such, there can be multiple factors that cause the trait, some genetic, some not...

Pastel and Screamer are terms that were applied within the herp industry and vary in their meaning industry-wide when looking at different species BUT...

As soon as the term becomes applied to a genetically proven morph for any individual species, it becomes dishonest to apply it to animals not carrying the genes.

Looking at Ball Pythons and the term Pastel... it applies to a proven codominant trait and should not be used as just an adjective.

Their are characteristics that make up what is known as a Pastel Jungle or Pastel Ball Python; Light colored irises, bright coloration, an outlined darker pattern with the gold showing through (blushing), the top half is a darker gold than the bottom half, and a nearly patterneless white belly.
Pastel Jungle Ball Python is a known morph and a co-dominate trait. Meaning if I breed a Pastel to a "normal" I will get 1/2 Pastel babies. If I breed Pastel to Pastel I will have a 1/4 shot at producing a "Super Pastel"....
So when people see the term Pastel being used in relation to Ball Pythons they expect to see the genetic morph. To me seeing a light colored Ball Python posted as a Pastel looks very ignorant, borderlining on scammish. Their are many different words out their avalable to describe anything, and it seems really odd to have to pick one that is already used to describe a desired trait. I think that it probably steers people away from someone that does this....
Thanks, Tom Baker

As soon as the term becomes applied to a genetically proven morph for any individual species, it becomes dishonest to apply it to animals not carrying the genes.

I'll have to agree with Seamus on this one. I caught myself calling one of my balls axanthic, in fact there is not even one yellow spot on him, only black white and greys. What else to call him? Non-yellow-dude? He is an adult and he looks even better than any proven axanthics out there!

But after giving it a second thought I realized it was not right to call him axanthic. Why? because he did not come from a "proven line" (e.g. Joliff or Sutherland). Thus it would mislead someone thinking I had an animal from that origin. So I made up a name just for the fun of it. After all I'm not going to sell him and he is having offspring this year for the first time. Now, if after breeding him to his daughters or the offspring among them I do get black and white individuals, well...

I agree with all three of you.
You can't call it a morph name unless it has a bloodline or you yourself can prove it out. I have a couple of "non yellow dudes" that haven't been bred, one is over twenty so time is winding down. I feel bad for them, but I had to breed the Def Het Males that I purchased because I know they carry genes that are proven.
In 03-04 I hope to breed him to a "normal" female, and then breed him to his daughters. I will sell the males as normals. Even if the offspring looked axanthic I wouldn't be comfortable selling them as that. It's so far away it would be easier to buy a Def Het. But he's a great snake and I want his genes normal or not.
I had some Striped Boa babies in a litter in '01, no idea where the parents came from so after talking to some Big Breeders I sold the non striped babies as 66%Poss Het for Striped UNPROVEN for $75. I had 1 buyer. The others I sold to a pet store as CB Boas $75. Go figure. I still have two stripes and four Poss unprovens. Hopefully someday I'll prove them out. But until I do I should let everyone know just because it's Striped doesn't mean it's genetic.
I've have found that the problem with proving your own morphs out is: 1. It takes a long time. 2. It's expensive and 3. Your wife wants to know why you only sold 20 out of 60 that you produced.
Please note: #3 is a Hypothetical # cause if she finds out, there will be a selling Blitz or me and my "kids" are out of here.LOL
Rob

Guys, I understand your argument, but I don't think it holds water.

Pastel - A soft delicate hue; a pale color.

That's the dictionary definition. One cannot trademark an adjective. Now one could say for example "Smith line pastel ball." I make no claims as to the genetics of these ball pythons, none. But, they could still easily be described as "pastel" because they have a soft delicate hue.

You are assuming there are "industry standards," there aren't. Look at what has happened to the term "OKEETEE." Okeetee is the name of a hunt club that produced big pretty corn snakes. 10-12 years ago and before if you purchased an Okeetee corn, most likely you were purchasing an animal whose bloodline could be traced back to said hunt club. Now the term has been bastardized to apply to ANY big pretty corn snake. Most of the people buying Okeetees, and I bet half of the people selling them, have no clue what Okeetee means. Some people can't even say it right.

I think you risk to much when you take subjective names (like pastel and hypo) and try to hold standards to them. And again who's to say that these "pastel balls" I have are not displaying a genetic trait. Maybe a different strain such as with albinism in boas. Hey, it could even be the same genetic condition. I don't sell them for proven genetics, I only sell them as the phenotype they actually display.

One cannot trademark an adjective.

Brian,

You might have a point there. I have been struggling with that myself. Terms such as axanthic and anerythristic describe an animal condition not exclusive to any company/breeder. Maybe breeders should have used other names. It is clear cut with piebalds and albinos, not that easy with other variants. Another example is the "mojave". Pretty straight forward. No one can claim breeding mojaves if they didn't come from that bloodline originated in one animal from the Sutherlands.

Regards.

Alvaro, what's strikes me as funny is even with 12 years exprience doing this, I have no freaking clue what the hell "mojave" means. Mojave to me is a desert or dessert depending on which spelling means a hot dry place. It's a nondescriptive term. Guess maybe I should go look up a picture of those and see if I have any babies that look like that.

Some other favorites:

Melting pattern

Busy pattern

Reduced pattern

I even made up one of my own, "cartoon phase" because I got these ball in last year that looked like someone had drawn it.

I personally thinks its comedy.... Is the term pastel something that pops right up in your head for that coloration? Not mine... Only because it has been used before and it is desired do you use it. I find it very funny that you would stick to a term that is being used for a genetic morph. I also think that certain newbies after hearing your argument might think that they lucked into a real pastel, not a so called one. Has nothing to do with wether your light colored ball has proven out Do your "Pastels" fit the description I left earlier? Take axanthic for example. If your snake lacks yellow pigment it is an Axanthic period. That is not the argument. Wether the genetics prove out or not is what people worry about. Their are certain lines that have been around and are proven as genetic and their probably some axanthics that are not genetic. So if it does not come from a proven line then you would have to breed it out to prove it genetic, not to prove it axanthic. Correct me if I'm wrong.

These are terms used for Ball's that have a certain pattern and are valuable, not for a light normal. As far as Mojave goes, it is a very good looking morph that varies greatly from normal. This has also proven out genetic. What is your problem with someone picking out a name (such as Mojave) and giving it to this morph? What would you name it? If another one pops up and is not from the Snake Keeper lineage, but has the same pattern as their Mojave's it would be a Mojave. This would now be the accepted term for a Ball that looks like this. They bring in new Pastels all the time, and just because they have not been proven, they are still Pastels. Just because you have a problem with the term Oketee and its definition does not mean that you should come in and try and overwrite whatever is going on in the Ball industry. Do some research and learn something about what is going on in the Ball market... It is not rocket science. Go to some of the breeders websites and look at their pages describing genetic morphs. Its weird how so many people can get it together, but some just dont get it. And it's never someone that is actually selling anything desired as much as the Pastels. You wont see someone that as learned what a Pastel is and actually has them for sale posting a $125 light normal as a pastel. Why is it always the guy that doesnt have Pastels? So what happens when you come across an actual Pastel? What are you going to name it? The super bright yellow, blushing, light iris, high contrast Ball Python thingy? Think about it for a little while... So what should the whole Ball Python industry do to display genetically differing snakes that are rare and valuable Brian? What should we all do now to clear up something that is so obvious? I will post a picture my Pastel female that I purchased from the Snake Keeper. If your so called "Pastels" look like this, let me know and I will buy quite a few of them. Oh wait, yours have light coloration, you might as well try and confuse your clients and be all around dishonest to try and sell some snakes as Pastels. Even if your "Pastels" prove that their pattern is genetic, it still is nothing but a light normal. Post a pic of your "Pastels that you have for $100 and show me I'm wrong. If its a Pastel I will give you $150.00. Look at this and think about your next post. This is a very good looking pastel and their are darker and less pretty pastels, but they all have the traits that make them pastels, and they all have the ability to produce a Super for you in the future.. Unlike your Ball's... To me this is ignorance at its finest. Im goint to get in my new H2 Hummer... Wait, I have an Xterra, but it has four wheels, and engine, and is an SUV.. Really similar to an H2. I'll just call it a Hummer.
Thanks, Tom Baker