To Jump or Not To Jump

Here's a hypothetical for those who don't think Brian is misrepresenting this animal.

It's technically a possibility that any animal might have spontaneously mutated and become heterozygous for a rare and desireable trait.

Possible hets for higher end morphs sell for more than normals.

Is it then acceptable to label an animal a "Possible Het for (Trait)" and charge ten times what would ordinarly be charged?

It's technically a possibility that this animal could qualify as a Pastel... But it's damn unlikely.

"Possible het" in the above example... Brian's "Pastel"

Same thing.

Seamus, it's so nice to see that you agree with me. Case is now closed, Brian can do as he sees fit, Seamus has admitted that though unlikely, it does fall within the realm of possibility that this snake is pastel and will pass on the trait it's offspring.

Anything is possible, especially with ball pythons and the endless mutability they seem so prone too. Who is to say that this snake IS NOT expressing a genitically inheritable trait? Until it's proven one way or the other some of us up on those high horses better make sure the cinch straps are tight.

Wes Pollock

charge ten times what would ordinarly be charged

Absolutely, he can charge whatever he wants no matter the label or genetics.

"Possible Het for (Trait)"

Isn't working with possible hets from anyone a gamble? A "from the wild" possible het is a larger risk than a "big name breeder" possible het. But both are still a risk. I'll never go near a slot machine but I'll play black jack no problem based on my levels of accepted risk. Is it the casino's responsibility to post a chart of which games have the best odds? In reality "playing the odds" is not a guaranteed situation no matter who you buy from.

but LIKELY the a novice buyer would form a misimpression

I believe one of Brian's premises was that the general public wouldn't be knowledgeable enough to know that a "pastel" was anymore than light colored, which in his impression the snake is.

By the way let me say first that I highly value the way this discussion has been discussed.

Now, as far as what Brian charges and how much profit he makes, it is NO ONES business but his. I think some of you have stepped pretty far over the line on this one. Yes, this is America, land of the free and home of the profit. Whether he gives it away for nothing or trades it for his next house is entirely up to him and whoever gets it, no one else.

For all I care there are people posting for sale baby albino boas of the Kahl strain for $1500. The ongoing market price is $800-1000 (as established by the larger breeders. Do I care? No. Their animal is not misrepresented, maybe their costs of production are higher, maybe they want to make more money. Good for them.

There are people posting adult normal male ball pythons (posted as such) for $200. Will they sell them? Probably not if they don't lower their price. Again it's their right and they are representing them as such. Same goes for females $300 normal adults. If you find the buyer good for you.

[b]Again, the only problem is when you use a name that leads to confusion in order to boost-up a sale. If you post normal ball pythons as hetero for Caramel (colorwise, a shade of brown) you are deceiving as people immediately relate to Caramel albinos. If you post an animal as Pastel people will understand Pastel Jungle. If you post Pieds people will understand piebalds.

The key is in Wes' words:

As long as the snake is honestly represented it's his business and no one elses what he sells it for.

I think it's time to side with Ken. Too much time spent on this discussion. It was good though!

Regards.

One closing joke for the day (related to genetics though). Remember the movie Dumb and Dumber? When Jim Carrey asks the girl "What are the chances of you and I going out together"? She is quick to answer "One in a million". Jim replies and says: "So you are actually saying there is a chance"!

Wes and Brian,
Their is no possiblility whatsover that any of those snakes are pastels. The one on the left side is the one I believe you are referring too. It has the blushing going down the back that is similar to what you find in pastels, but that is it and the blushing does not seem to be near as intense. It looks brown, not yellow or even light. The eyes appear to be dark not light or gray. The belly is not visible, but is it patternless? There does not appear to be a two tone of gold (or brown in your case) from the top to the bottom. I dont know what else you want to hear about that snake in particular. Without better pictures or without seeing it in person, that snake is not a Pastel or Pastel Jungle Ball Python and to name it such is deceptive and scammish. Even if those genes passed on, they are not near a pastel and do not bring interest from that pattern or any genetics involved with that. I would not take that snake from you for free if it is a male. Most breeders would probably not take the time to try and prove out minor differences in pattern such as your snakes unless they have quite a few distinct and very noticable differences. Like the Pastels.
It is noones business what anyone decides to charge for any possesion wether it be $1.00 or $100,000. But what some fail to realize is that Seames is 100% correct. When you attach a name to an animal that is accepted in the industry as a desired trait, if this animal does not have this trait you are somewhat tricking people into buying it. What happens if they dont ask? Are you going to tell them Brian? Will you give them the speech about how this probably is a Pastel, but does not come with paperwork since the genetics are not proven. Even hinting to that is downright fraudulent and would make you to be pretty much a lowlife in my book. Its strange how your looking for answers that it is o.k. to use the term Pastel from people that do not know Ball's, and trying to find leverage that way instead of just asking actual people in the Ball Python industry. One visit to any of the "Big Breeders" would clear it up right away. Instead you want to act like their is some big Pastel conspiracy going on and that their are normals out their that look exactly like Pastels but since it is not from the original lineage that it does not count. That is all ridiculous and you really should change your way of thinking. If your going to be involved in selling Ball Pythons and you want to be taken seriously why would you disregard all the work and effort out that has been done, just so hopefully you can feel like you happened upon a morph without having to do any research or spend any money. Its just all of us ingnorant people trying to hold down the market and deny that you own a Pastel. But, whatever.... Do what you rationalise is the right thing to do instead of JUST ASKING EXPERTS IN THE FEILD. Im sure that will bring you alot closer to owning a pastel (at least in your mind, and the mind of the soon to be possibly scammed customer).
Thanks, Tom Baker

Daniel,
I dont think that their is a such thing as a "possible hets", or even hets from the wild. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that if it is from the wild we would have no idea who the parents were, completlely distinguishing any possibiblity of guessing genetics. It is either visibly displaying the trait or it is a wild caught normal. I dont think I have ever seen 100% Heterozygous for Albino Wild Caught Ball Python posted for sale.
And as far as Camlon Reptiles (mentioned earlier), I have met and have talked to both Diana and Debra quite a few times. I know for fact they produced Pastels last year. I have yet to hatch out a Ball (have 7 eggs in incubator in which 1/2 should be Pastel Jungle), but I am assuming they could tell that this was a Pastel ready to exit the egg (I did not see pic). Hopefully I will get to see the difference soon ;-). I trust them enough to have purchased a 100% for albino female. I just remembered I wanted to mention that when they were first brought up.
Thanks, Tom Baker

I've got 20 possible het for leucisitc sand boas for sale for only $1000 each, if anyone's interested. There's a 1/100,000 chance that they are carrying a leucisitic mutation, so you can't say it's not true .


Erin B.

(I got the figure out of a book)

I believe one of Brian's premises was that the general public wouldn't be knowledgeable enough to know that a "pastel" was anymore than light colored, which in his impression the snake is

THANK YOU, THANK YOU , THANK YOU!!!!!!

At least one person gets it.

Seamus, I'm not now, nor will I every be selling this snake as a het, poss. het, maybe het, 1 in a million chance of being het, go take a flying leap off a tall building het. So please quit trying to argue the poss het. thing, it doesn't fit the situation. This snake is phenotypically (looks) abnormal, that is all I'm trying to say. If I sell this snake, it will be sold based on how it looks, period. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

IMHO this snake looks "pastel." Now, based on the fact that I now fear for my life because of "The Brotherhood of the Ball", I may, repeat may, just go ahead and use Alvaro's suggestion of "Pastelish." And frankly Seamus, if someone is knowledgeable enough about ball pythons to be able to quote your definition of pastel, verbatum, don't you think they should know what one looks like, know what questions to ask, and know what the current market value is? My point is, no one that is looking for a Pastel Jungle, and has done all this research you and Tom keep screaming about, is going to be confused by my little $200 pastel. I know this snake isn't worth $1500 and I'm a freaking idiot when it comes to ball pythons (according to you and Tom), so if I can manage it, I think the general public will do just fine.

Tom,

Adult Piebalds, albinos, and pastel jungles (there was one up for sale on kingsnake until last week) have been captured in the past. Chances are they were produced by a random mating of two recessive genes in the wild. Mathematically there is a possibility that it might happen, but it would probably be like winning the powerball twice in a row.

Regards.