To Jump or Not To Jump

Tom, genetically speaking, every animal born is a "possible het" for every recessive condition known, and unknown, to man. That doesn't make it a marketable condition though. Het or not het animals don't show recessive traits only dominate ones. The recessive only shows up if the dominate is not part of the animal's genome.

In fact, genetically speaking, calling the Pastel Jungle trait a "co-dominate trait" may be incorrect also. If this Super Pastel you speak of is obtained the same way a Super Tiger Retic is then the trait would be one exhibiting incomplete dominance not codominance. To give you an example if your mother carries only genes for A type blood and your Father only genes for B type blood you will have the AB blood type. Codominance means both traits are expressed FULLY. In incomplete dominance, the traits are muted and only fully expressed when the offspring has the trait on both chromosomes.

The alleles for the Super Tiger could be represented as TT (or tt but that is confusing because the genes are not truly recessive), for a tiger TN, and for a normal retic would be NN. If the traits are truly recessive (not having effects in the heterozygous condition) like albinism we'd use lower case letters. Nn for a het albino, nn for albino.

I think part of the problem here lies in the confusion of just what qualifies an animal to be labeled as a particular "morph" Does an animal need to have the geneotype to be classified as a morph or will the phenotype be enough. Example, I just bought a bunch of leopard geckos from Garrick Demayer. Of the 15, two have no black on them, just very light yellow, and a light lavender look. I know that Garrick is smart enough not to include anything that would be considered a more rare "morph" in a group of normals (if he did then thank you and I am the fool) To me I would consider them hypos, perhaps even amelanistic, but I would never label them as such. In fact I just saw a baby "hypo" listed that had more black on it than almost every one I got from him. I do not the the parents of these animals, and I don't know the genetics. Still, I know what they look like. I also know that baby Leos can change their color dramatically as they get older and that babies that look odd have a very good chance of ending up looking like average normal adults. Still, very few of these babies look anything like the dozens of bright black and yellow babies that I have hatched out in the past. They will be sold as normals however, and if someone wants to call them "hypos" when they get them home, thats not my fault, I won't even bring that term up.

I don't want to switch this from a ball discussion to a gecko discussion, I am just adding input from a situation I know personally. I will give you a hypothetical situation that does involve balls though. Recently it is rumored that someone paid a ton of money for a leucistic female ball python. We have all seen the pictures and we all agree that it is a leucistic (type 1 or 2 is another matter) What if this snake never produces leucistic offspring or any of its offspring ever produce leucistics. Is this animal then NOT to be considered leucistic since its genetics have never been proven. I seem to recall a while back someone had a pure white burmese python with coal black eyes ( a friend of mine had pictures of it and says he had seen it. Wouldn't this qualify as a leucistic. I had also heard that the owner could never get it to reproduce. Since the genetic line was never proven through offspring, is this no longer a leucistic snake.

When it comes to genetics I am no Mendel, and I admit that comparing a leucistic to a pastel jungel may be like comparing apples to oranges (really white apples to a paler softer shade of orange oranges perhaps but a comparison none the less)

Still they question is valid. What does it take for an animal to be labeled as "??" does it simply have to look liks a "??" or does it have to have the proven genetics of a "??" and if it does look like a "??" wouldn't that indicate that it has the genetics of a "??"

Of course all of this is thrown out the window when we can't even agree on what a "??" really is. Its kind of like the Cincinnati Bengals, they have the superficial outward appearance of a proffesional football team but ...

Steve Schindler

My point about their being no hets or poss. hets from the wild was not that they dont exist, but that noone knows who the parents are and to claim any genetics is a lie. I think that obviously certain people have a different tolerance level for what they consider the truth.
I also really do not have a complete understanding of the punnet square or science in general to argue anything about the co-dominance or dominance of a trait. I do know that somepeople look at a Pastel as the heterozygous form of a Super Pastel. The difference between the recessive trait is that the co-dominate is visible in het form. Could be completely wrong, but that is how I have come to understand it.
Brian,
I think your problem lies within the fact that you do know that their are Pastels available. At first you came on saying that yours was better looking than mine, and since it didnt come with paperwork that is why it is not a pastel. Any stretch of a possible argument you can come up with about how the general public doesnt know so it shouldnt matter. The general public doesnt know about Pastels being a used trait... Your snake does not resemble any dictionary definiton to pastel (that I can see), nor does it appear in anyway to be a Pastel Jungle. Why would you be bent on using the term Pastel? What if someone is as ignorant as you to what the correct markings of a Pastel. Maybe they are the type of person who has heard of Pastel, but really knows nothing at all about them, kinda like you. They then see Pastel related to your snake and they think they got a deal. I guess you can only teach a dog so many tricks, but if you have to stick to the term Pastel, so be it. Glom on to any term you can find and use it... God forbid that could be a good looking normal, instead it is pastelish, Pastel like, Pastel without paperwork, unproven pastel. Say whatever you need to get just that right amount of deception without actually lying. That sounds like the right thing to do huh Brian? Next time I need advice on my Nissan, Im going to call the Hummer dealer because I think Nissan messed up naming my SUV an Xterra because it is very Hummerish... ;-)
Thanks, Tom Baker
Thanks, Tom Baker

Steve,
We can agree what a Pastel is. Brian only has to ask the experienced "Big Breeders" in the ball industry. I think if I asked here what the difference between an E-Orracle, an Intimidator, or an Angel is (paintball guns), most would not know the difference. So me being partially intelligent would probably go over to a paintball forum. The only reason that we cannot agree what a Pastel is because we dont have many that are working with them here. Their is a defintite look to a Pastel that most Ball enthusiasts can pick out. Pure and Simple!!!!!! Just because the non-Ball oriented people here do not know does not mean their is not a standard.
I also believe that if an animal is pure white and has black eyes it is Luecistic. Just as if an animal is lacking yellow pigment it is Axanthic. Their possibly can be other factors that maybe lead to how they appear this way other than genetics. Maybe similar to how some animals will be striped due to incubation temps,not genetics. I think that people will call it unproven until that lineage produces offspring to guarantee that its genetic. I could be way off base here, but that is how I've come to understand it.
Thanks, Tom Baker

Steve, obviously, I like to call a duck a duck. I call a snake hypo if it is hypo as compared to the average normal phenotype of it's species. That's why I think this snake qualifies as pastel. The term pastel has been used to describe light colored ball pythons, with a blushing type head (and body in most cases), light colored irises, and bright gold pattern. Could I call it something else? Sure but then people would be asking why are you making up stupid names. Pastel means a soft hew, and maybe a little more, I think my snake has that. The term Pastel Jungle implies a specific set of characteristics, genes, and verifiable lineage. But you will not find the term "Pastel Jungel" in any Genetics text book, like you could the terms albino, amelanistic, axanthic, etc.

I think what needs to happen is, if this term/name is so important to the owners of the blood line, they need to apply for a trademark. Then "Pastel Jungle" (capitalized) could only be legally used to describe snakes of that lineage. But, I doubt they can claim the adjective pastel. Once they do that, then everyone can dance around the name, but never use it. Then we could have a true industry standard. If it says Pastel Jungle, you'd better be able to back up the claim.

If it says pastelish, pastel, pastel wannabe, whatever, then people who might be looking for a Pastel Jungle would know it's just a pretty ball python that may or may not have the ability to pass on it's traits. If not, whether it be me or 1500 other vendors around the world people will continue to use the adjective pastel to describe ball pythons that look like this, and eventually the term will mean nothing special at all, nuch the same way okeetee now means big, pretty corn snake.

Kind of like Dr. Pepper, there's Dr. Chek, Dr. Thunder, and I'm sure others around different parts of the nation. Are they similar to Dr. Pepper, well that's depends on you you ask. Some people are very happy to spend less for an off brand and are then satisfied with the taste. Some people do not buy off-brands period. But I seriouly doubt people that pick up a bottle of Dr. Thunder at thier neighborhood Walmart can turn around and sue Walmart when they find out it's not Dr. Pepper.

Ignorance must truly be bliss. I hate to say it, but the arguments you have are pretty pathetic. Their is a standard in the industry and if you want to act like a little spoiled kid who needs to use the term pastel, and disrespect and try and make yourself to be so important as to change what is accepted in the Ball Python industry, that is your call. What because you have a normal Ball Python? What would you call the snake if it was actually a Pastel (sorry Pastel Jungle for those who dont understand that concept)? Why would you even try and start compairing the inadequacies of the labeling of the Corn market and then you want to be the leader of the same thing with Ball Pythons? Just think about how much you could of learned about what is going on in the Ball market and what is considered the standard with genetics. Instead you whine about everything under the sun so you can hopefully confuse someone into thinking theirs is a Pastel. Light irises, what a lighter shade of brown? You'll continually make references to how they cannot copywright an adjective instead of just sucking it up and realizing the truth. I really am awestruck at what was originally ignorance that then turned into stupidity. Maybe I take this more personally then some because I do have actual Pastels, and even eggs in the incubator. But when you have an idea of what your talking about and you see someone who is given the information, and through the internet has access to any Ball Python expert, but completely avoids all of it for his own personal attempt at importance or deception, or maybe just plain old jealousy. Who knows? Actual truth and the ability to read and understand are not going to take place with Brian , so stick with deception and arguments enought to just dodge what is accepted, or what is really going on in an industry that exist and has standards even if you refuse to see it.....
Thanks, Tom Baker

Tom, since you like talking about SUV's so much, let's go there.

The name Nissan Exterra is a trademarked brand name. No one make a car and call it that, except Nissan. If fact, even if Hummer wanted to, they couldn't call one of their models the Hummer Exterra. Let's say your Exterra is red. So, you now own a Red Nissan Exterra. Hummer can make red Hummers, and they can call them red.

The term pastel when used to describe reptiles brings to mind a light colored animal (can everyone agree to that). You can't say there is an industry standard unless, everytime someone says "pastel" to a herper (any herper, not just the 56 people who hang out in the BP forum, because that forum is not the industry), everyone of them immediately spits out your 15 page definition of the Jungle Pastel line.

I have pastel boas, and they are definitely not Pastel Jungle ball pythons. Much the same way a red Hummer is not a red Nissan Exterra. The word pastel in and of itself cannot be trademarked and therefor cannot be claimed by the Botherhood of the Ball. Trademark "Pastel Jungle" and then go after people who infringe on your trademark. This is America we have laws that will help you do so.

Suppose tonight you and your family are walking out to your RED Nissan Exterra and one of your kids who is still small enough to fit in a car seat (if you have any) calls "shotgun." There is a standard which says he who calls "shotgun" gets to ride in the front seat. But there are also laws which say children in car seats must ride in the backseat. You can't call "shotgun" on an adjective. Therefor, you guys are going to have to do a better job in the future of picking names for your aberrant ball pythons. Don't use adjectives like pastel, use nouns like Mojave or Moca and then trademark those names.

Tom,

Take a deep breath. I don't think that Brian is attacking you personally and said if he did sell it then he would label it "light colored" or "pastelish" just to appease the purists in the group.

The law states you cannot trademark or reserve a generic term. Since pastel is a generic term it is open to use by anyone to describe their snake, lizard or car. Pastel Jungle is a specific name, and if there is an industry standard is should be as specific as possible so as to not allow for confusion either through dishonest means or lack of knowledge.

Stand at a department store checkout stand for a period of time. You'd be amazed at the lack of knowledge for the most part on the consumer. Then grab a sample of these consumers that lack knowledge and sit down explaining all the details about the items in their purchase. The ones that don't fall asleep from boredom would still purchase the same product at the same price.

Why would you even try and start compairing the inadequacies of the labeling of the Corn market and then you want to be the leader of the same thing with Ball Pythons?

He's stating that the labeling is already inadequate. As one of the ads posts by Alavaro shows, it's being exploited at shows across the US. The weakness is in the poor labeling utilized by the "industry standard".

Read my previous post... It says it all. Their is nothing more I can add to this and their is nothing that you want to hear other than that you have a pastel and can call it that. I personally dont deal with Boas or Corns, but I would never go and try and start making changes and claims in their industry. If I wanted to be taken seriously I would learn and follow what is accepted in that particular industry and go from their. But maybe the difference is that I would not mislead, lie, or be deceptive in anyway. If you told me you had a Pastel Boa I would not relate that to ball Python. The minute you had a Pastel Ball I would expect to see a certain animal. You truly are a waist of time.. Have fun with your pastel, maybe you can try and find some fake Clowns, because we all know what clowns look like, but how can they name a ball Python that? Right Brian? If it has red curly hair and a honker on its nose, and you painted spots on it it would be a "Clown" Ball Python. We all know that is what clowns do as people so why couldnt a clown ball be the same way? Wow what fun low level arguments without logic or reasoning can be....
Tom Baker

In the name of all that's holy...