Reptile Ethics, When do we say thats enough

BRIAN

Yes it should be a vet or vet assistant or other qualified person with proper facilities and or staff to aid the animal in its total recovery as prescribed by law. There is a reason people must be trained to do this properly I sure the hell do not want someone to do an operation on me that is not qualified and you probably wouldn't either.We should expect and demand no less for an animal.

I have the knowledge to preform this operation but just because I have the knowledge does not make me qualified. I would most likely end up killing the animal. That is a risk I will not nor am not willing to take. There just is no reason for this operation. Or for that fact any operation on a reptile that is not required do to life threatening circumstances. Reptiles do not react well to surgery.

Scott Bice

Jesse... What's up with the attack on Scott. He came on here helping you with your case??? In regards to the question...There are reasons for the regulations. Even if you are "qualified" to do the surgery you cannot legally. Works the same for animals or people. A doctor can prescribe you medication for your child but, you can't do surgery on a child yourself? It's pretty simple. I understand your argument however, no matter how you look at it it's illegal. Thanks Ray G. HBR

Guys, if that is illegal, then so is giving your own snake a shot (which apparently they both are). Yes, this is more complicated. But, as Scott said, a 1st year Biology student could do it. I fully believe that if I was given a half dozen or so dead snakes to practice on, the meds and tools required, and a copy of Mader's Vet. surgery guide, I could do this operation. Not saying I ever would, because it's not something I believe in doing. But, I think most of us could do this. Especially, if we were only doing the cauterization/ligation type of procedure.

Take it one step further. Let's say you have a vet, who is willing to let you watch the operation a couple of times, and maybe is even willing to give the meds required to do it yourself. Much the same way we came to be able to give our own shots. If that is the case then, this would be no more illegal than that bottle of Baytril we keep in the filing cabinet, to use on all of those URI's WE diagnose. Again, yes, this is a little more complicated than giving a shot, but it not brain surgery. LOL couldn't resist.

I'm not in any way, shape, or form for injurying animals. But, I'm also very against wrongful prosecution of reptile handlers for things that are no worse than what happens on animal ranches every single day. And just because this guy may be doing wrong doesn't mean that you or I couldn't do it correctly. Don't make rules you yourself can't live with.

Brian

If a Vet prescribes meds to you to use its legal Same as if a DR prescribes them for human use. Up to and including shots.

Anyone foolish enough to preform a surgery after watching it needs their head examined. Just because you can do it seen it done or have an idea how to do it DOES NOT substitute the years of education and skill behind a vet. That is why the state requires a VET to preform the surgery.

And I can live with the laws to protect animals from potential death that is uneeded for pure monetary gain.

That is why the state requires a VET to preform the surgery

OK, I just did a little research. Marshall Farms, probably the world's biggest ferret breeder. Apparently, uses regular employees to perform thier spay/neuter "surgerys." I would think that these surgerys would be much more difficult and invasive than removing a venom gland. They also apparently perform these surgeries at a very young age. All practices which seem to have the American Vet. Assoc. up in arms. Yet, Marshall farms is still business. PETA certainly has plenty of web sites dedicated to it, yet the practice continues. Where are the lawyers on this one? PETA's sites say they "have been cited," but don't go beyond that. Now, granted I only spent about 10 minutes looking into this. But, I wanted to give you an example of what I am talking about.

These are cute little ferrets, of which, THOUSANDS are sold every year. They are carried in just about every chain pet store you can think of, and yet, Marshall Farms is still doing all this stuff everyday. If that is the case, do you really think some yocal removing the venom glands from rattlesnakes is gonna get into a bunch of trouble? I doubt it, I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Juries would be much harder on a huge company like this cutting into literally thousands of 3 week old baby ferrets every year, than they would be on some guy and HIS pet rattlesnake. Yet, it seems nothing is standing Marshall Farm's way. In fact, I have owned a Marshall Farms ferret (maybe even two, now that I think about it) and there was nothing wrong with it. So, apparently, it can be done.

Although I'm rabidly anti-venomoid, I need to clarify something here. Those three letters behind a person's name are seemingly being granted mote weight than they're often worth. When it comes to dealing with reptiles, I've found that the average vet's knowledge pales in comparison to that of an intermediate/advanced hobbyist. Indeed, the herpetological knowledge of many vets is limited to having a copy of Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery available to consult. Most of their education is focused on companion animals, and not exotics such as reptiles.

This is not to disparage or take away from any vet, as I've also encountered some exceptional ones, who's degree of expertise can never be rivaled.

Ken

Your very correct about the letters behind the name. I will not dispute that as I to have seen many vets that don't know jack about reptiles.In fact I know of a few that call breeders/ keepers for aid when they are confused. The problem is in the wording of the law and its interpetations.Believe me I am suprised I have not gone bald from ripping hairs out over this issue. The bottom line until laws are made more reasonable and sinceable is they are there and we have to either change them or obey them. We as keepers that have the great responcibility to care for our animals must do what is in the interest of the animals well being and needs.

These people are not keeping or carrying for the animals but doing surgery then selling them and that is the crime be it recognised or not. My concerns are for the animals well being and with the high mortality rate it is obviously an operation that should not be preformed. Combined with the dangers if the surgery is not done correct and the reptile regains its venom capabilities.

Brian

Thank you for the example I was not aware of that but will look in to it. Word of warning believe half of what PETA says and you might get a tenth of the truth. They have a very clear agenda. If the operations were going on and they were cited it would be a matter of public record and one i will be looking for.

The type of operation however your talking about is one that is extremely easy and well documented and on Mammals that do very well with Medications. You cant compare Mammals to reptiles when it comes to surgery and meds.they just dont react the same.

Well you guys are seeing a fraction of what I go through every day i dive in to this subject. Atleast I must say here your logic is much better and your knowledge higher then most I have had to talk to. Maybe some Rogain is in my future. God I love a good debate and discussion.

Scott Bice

Scott, I love it too.

Now back to it. I would have to disagree that spaying/neutering is a simpler operation than removing a gland located on the side of the head. The mammal operation would require going in through the skin, the muscle, fascia, moving the intestines aside, and then either removing two very highly vascularized organs or at least cauterizing them. True abdominal surgery. Also in the case of a 3 week old ferret, you're talking about a pretty small field in which to work. Removing or cauterizing a gland located outside the skull (I think thats correct) seems to me to be much easier and less invasive, than what is being done to the mammals.

Drugs are certainly an issue, but most of that stems from a lack of testing. I often think vets are guessing when they prescribe dosages for reptiles. I usually get the drugs from the vet, and then figure my own dosages using the material I have at home. The mammals probably have better reactions to drugs, because all drugs are tested on mammals. Labs have figured out exactly what works based on years of trial and ERROR experiments.

Scott, I love it too.

Now back to it. I would have to disagree that spaying/neutering is a simpler operation than removing a gland located on the side of the head. The mammal operation would require going in through the skin, the muscle, fascia, moving the intestines aside, and then either removing two very highly vascularized organs or at least cauterizing them. True abdominal surgery. Also in the case of a 3 week old ferret, you're talking about a pretty small field in which to work. Removing or cauterizing a gland located outside the skull (I think thats correct) seems to me to be much easier and less invasive, than what is being done to the mammals.

Drugs are certainly an issue, but most of that stems from a lack of testing. I often think vets are guessing when they prescribe dosages for reptiles. I usually get the drugs from the vet, and then figure my own dosages using the material I have at home. The mammals probably have better reactions to drugs, because all drugs are tested on mammals. Labs have figured out exactly what works based on years of trial and ERROR experiments.

I have been looking for this link for a few days now it is from the SHHS website and wourth a read.

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/arti...84794fadae28fd

Have a good read. I have to get ready for a herp society meeting tonight but rest asure Brian I will be back for the med talk. Just wish more members would actually join in on this conversation we can use constructive input from more than just 3 or 4 of us.

Scott Bice