Reptile Ethics, When do we say thats enough

I think that I am done replying to the flames, I really don't feel like the BS. Have fun, get in there and get the last word, I could care less. There is no way of proving anything, this is a forum and it is pretty much a back and forth battle. Nothing will ever be proved to some people's liking, because nobody wants to be wrong.
Kevin Smith

Kevin, you are still trying your little trick of covering the main issue or question by flying off about a less significant one. (sorry, but I work in the psych field, I see these things) Ray Hunter can not call me as you suggest, becaause he does not have my phone number. But nice attempt. You want to call this a flame thing, but you are the only one here calling people childish names. So it is not flame when you dish it out, but it becomes flame when someone catches you in lies?

You have proven yourself to be far less than honest multiple times, so why would anyone believe YOU over Ray and Ken? You say you got a 5' Gaboon Viper that weighed 4lbs, and were going to post pics, but lied about that. Where are the pics? Ray has invited you to prove him wrong by posting the pics, but you can not because you know they do not exist. So don't be mad at anyone but yourself when people know you are lying about the monocle Cobras, and probably everything else. But forget about that. Back to the big question everyone is still asking (even on the other thread)...

Kevin, DO YOU, or HAVE YOU PERFORMED YOUR OWN VENOMOID SURGERIES? YES or NO?

Thanks for the intelligent response. No flames..no names! Yes it can be done! Lets keep it that way. I agree with the statement that they must be healthy and un-stressed before the surgery. I think I pointed that out before. That was the only concern..fresh/untreated imports going under the knife. Thanks Ray G. HBR

Addressing Mr. Connelly's statements specifically, it is not legal, not ethical and not really possible for the layperson to perform major invasive surgery on a reptile without significant risk to the animal. A textbook and a stock of drugs used in surgery (many of which are illegal to possess if you are not a licensed veterinarian) cannot give you the knowledge of how to respond to any of the numerous complications and issues that can and do crop up during surgery. While you are turning pages in Mader, your patient may be hemmorrhaging or not breathing, and if you cannot respond appropriately within a very short time you can have a dead animal on the table.

There is a great difference between breeders giving antiparasitical and antibiotic medications to their animals and breeders performing actual surgery on animals for sale. This can be likened legally and ethically to a parent with a sick child - a parent may administer OTC or prescribed medications, but you may not snip your child's tonsils off with the kitchen shears. I agree that serious reptile keepers can and should learn to do much of their own veterinary care, but I am very concerned that most of them are not learning to do it properly.

For instance, Baytril shots are a *tremendously* bad idea as a general reptile prophylactic. Recent research (Mader, ARAV 2001 proceedings) shows that the pharmokinetics of oral administration is identical after a short initial uptake period, and that intramuscular injection of enrofloxacin causes sterile abscess. The manufacturer of Baytril states clearly that it is for single injectable use only, and there is a very good reason for that!

Assuming that you have guessed correctly and your snake's problem is in fact bacterial and not fungal, viral, parasitic or neoplastic, oral enrofloxacin is not a bad choice at all for a broad spectrum gram negative effective antibiotic. However there are some even better choices, such as Fortaz (ceftazidime) that have longer dosing intervals and nontraumatic intramuscular administration. The best choice is a C&S (culture and sensitivity) test to identify the underlying pathogen and the best curative agent. However the extra time and cost of labwork means that many patients with what strongly appears to be a bacterial problem do benefit from taking a "best guess" shot and administering an antibiotic. If you have guessed wrong and the problem is not bacterial, you can do some harm to the patient. Breeders can learn how to take samples and send off labwork the same as vets can; it is wise to develop a relationship with your local veterinary laboratory if you have a large collection.

Addressing Mr. Smith's comments regarding different snake species requiring different dosages of antibiotics and other drugs, I will state categorically that this is not a particularly accurate answer. We work with many different species of viperids, elapids and a few of the opistoglyphic colubrids at the clinic, quite often rehabilitating animals imported in poor or trauma injured condition. While there are variances in their reactions to various anesthetic and sedative agents, we have seen no variance whatsoever in antibiotic response. A few species seem to have unusual sensitivities to antiparasitical agents, notably Ivermectin. Elliot Jacobsen cites a sensitivity in Uracoan rattlesnakes to this drug, and consequently we have not attempted its use in the Crotalus durissus complex. Correct and up to date dosages for most commonly used drugs in snakes can be found in Carpenter's manual. See http://www.snakegetters.com/demo/vet/books.html for more information.

Venomoid surgery is definitely in the major and invasive category. It is not a casual operation by any means. A fairly large organ inside a snake's head is being tampered with or removed, and the risk to the animal as well as the expected degree of post surgical pain is high. If appropriate pain relieving medications (buprenorphine, butorphanol, local nerve blocks) are not being used in additional to surgical anesthesia, then the procedure is inhumane and cruel. If these drugs are being used outside of a licensed veterinary clinic, the procedure is illegal. Unlicensed venomoid practicioners can take their pick of being convicted of either illegal drug possession or animal cruelty, or more likely both.

Significant legal slack exists for people performing procedures on their own pets or livestock, as long as it is clearly not for profit. However any indication that surgery is being performed on live animals by unlicensed people for a profit makes veterinary ethics boards very, very unhappy. In addition, farmers have been prosecuted in the past for performing procedures on their own animals in ways that are deemed inhumane or inappropriate.

Enforcement of these laws varies by location, and the social prejudice that exists against venomous snakes is such that it can be difficult to get local officials very interested in a "cruelty to snakes" case, unless people specifically file complaints. I believe that more attention will be paid to this particular issue as the venomoid industry grows in popularity and receives more public attention.

Regards,

Tanith Tyrr
Snake Getters
www.snakegetters.com

I would also like to note that there is no book that can possibly substitute for clinical experience in determining a drug dose for an individual patient. The correct dose *range* can be found in veterinary literature, but the dose itself needs to be titrated based on the patient's situation and observed response.

So the literature says 5mg/kg enrofloxacin every 24 hours. So what. That isn't a magic bullet and it might not help your particular patient. You need to know enough to decide when it's time to increase that dose and add Ceftazadime, and even more importantly when the characteristics of that respiratory problem you are seeing give you reason to suspect that it might be parasitical or even viral in origin and not bacterial at all.

Some veterinarians are pretty well useless when it comes to snakes, and it's a pointless waste of time and money to bring your animals to them. They don't teach reptile medicine in vet school, but some vets who literally know nothing of reptile medicine are willing to take in reptile patients. These are the vets who think all sick snakes have a Baytril deficiency. Also they haven't bothered to read any recent research and so they are still giving multiple enrofloxacin shots for what might well be a non bacterial problem in the first place.

If the only vets in your area are like this, fire them and start getting serious about doing your own veterinary work. But I do mean serious, not haphazard. You will need to pick up a good microscope and learn to do fecal floats and smears, hematology and basic cytology. You should pick up Mader, Carpenter and Klingenberg at a minimum, and subscribe to ARAV proceedings to keep up with current literature. Learn how to take good samples and where to send them for diagnostic work. Perform thorough necropsies on every single dead snake that comes into your hands. Beg and borrow more dead snakes if you can. Learn what normal looking tissue and organs are supposed to look like and feel like, and what is pathology.

Shotgunning a sick looking snake with random drugs is NOT the answer. The skill you need is how to find out what is really wrong with the animal and what to do about it, and that isn't something you can easily acquire from a book on your shelf. I'm not saying that keepers and breeders shouldn't do some of their own veterinary work, but it should be done right if it is to be done at all.

Regards,

Tanith Tyrr
Snake Getters
www.snakegetters.com

Tanith,

So which is it, should we be allowed to educate ourselves, obtain the needed meds and supplies, diagnose and treat our own animals, and thereby protect them from overzealous and undertrained vets....OR.... should we be forced to take what we can get at the local veterinary clinic even if that means being greeted at the door with a needle full of Baytril. Because, I know that you know, that not every vet office will even see herps much less treat them. And many of the ones that will, know less about the animals than the owner.

I understand that you are 100% percent against venomoid surgeries (performed by a vet or not) BUT, you can't talk out of both sides of your mouth. If a person can do all the things you mentioned in your second post, then I would have to say that a person could also educate themselves enough to perform that minor (yes, I said it again) surgery.

Further Tanith, I've been in your house, watching your vet, GUESS (albeit educated) how many drops of sedative it would take to knock out rattlesnakes so we could do blood draws on them. I saw him get it right most of the time, but I also saw him have to add a few more for a couple particularily fiesty ones. Not exactly what I would call precise calculations. So the truth of the matter is, someone like yourself or perhaps even Kevin can be better equiped do deal with these animals than the local guy who just happens to a have veterinary degree.

This particular surgery is every bit as controversial in the herp world, as abortion is in the people world. But, just because many of us don't agree with doing it, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. And if we choose to push the issue and succeed in getting this outlawed/enforced/whatever, what's next? Maybe next we'll have people pushing for no one, other than zoos, being allowed to keep venomous snakes.

Originally posted by bpc
So which is it, should we be allowed to educate ourselves, obtain the needed meds and supplies, diagnose and treat our own animals, and thereby protect them from overzealous and undertrained vets....OR.... should we be forced to take what we can get at the local veterinary clinic even if that means being greeted at the door with a needle full of Baytril.

Absolutely we should be allowed to educate ourselves. However we need to commit to educating ourselves properly, not haphazardly. Many veterinarians as you so rightly point out have NOT made this committment, but they are treating reptile patients anyhow. A dedicated, well educated hobbyist with a good microscope and access to a lab for diagnostics can do a lot more at home for a sick snake than an indifferent dog and cat veterinarian who has no real understanding of reptiles and no clinical experience with them.

A haphazardly practicing, read-it-somewhere-on-the-net hobbyist can do an awful lot of damage trying to treat his own collection. An uneducated veterinarian can also kill off your collection because he or she just doesn't have the clinical experience to make the right decisions. If neither the hobbyist or the vet knows very much about reptile medicine, I'd say the patient is in serious trouble.

I understand that you are 100% percent against venomoid surgeries (performed by a vet or not) BUT, you can't talk out of both sides of your mouth. If a person can do all the things you mentioned in your second post, then I would have to say that a person could also educate themselves enough to perform that minor (yes, I said it again) surgery.

Given enough years of clinical and/or practical experience and the proper drugs and equipment, minor surgery is not beyond the scope of the trained individual. Full adenectomy is *not* minor in the professional opinion of any veterinarian I have ever worked with or discussed this issue with.

It comes down to this choice. Either you are illegally using controlled substances for pain relief and surgical anesthesia, or you are committing extreme animal cruelty by operating without these drugs. The most common scenario is that minimal drugs are used (just iso or sevo for the surgery itself) and the more seriously controlled substances for pain relief are not used at all. This is inappropriate and inhumane, and still illegal when done by unlicensed people for profit.

I've had a fair amount of experience with oral surgery in venomous snakes at this point. These are *not* simple or painless operations by any means. This area is well vascularized and has plenty of nerve tissue, much like the mouth of any other animal. We expect significant postoperative discomfort in the patient, and veterinary ethics (as well as our practical experience at reading the clinical signs of pain in reptiles) require this to be addressed with appropriate medication. As far as I know, none of the unlicensed venomoid practicioners are using any kind of analgesic medication postoperatively. That's not good.

Additionally most are apparently not using postoperative antibiotics either. I have seen venomoided animals in what I would consider to be very serious condition after being shipped to the Columbia show for sale directly after surgery. I would have to guess that the mortality rate would have been very high indeed on these animals.

I have much less of a problem with venomoid operations performed in a clinic by a licensed veterinarian using appropriate pain relief medications. However this really isn't the scenario that we are looking at in the hobby today. I wish it was.

Further Tanith, I've been in your house, watching your vet, GUESS (albeit educated) how many drops of sedative it would take to knock out rattlesnakes so we could do blood draws on them. I saw him get it right most of the time, but I also saw him have to add a few more for a couple particularily fiesty ones. Not exactly what I would call precise calculations.

Have you ever watched any procedures being done under isoflurane? Titrating the amount of anesthetic gas to the patient's response is the normal procedure even in human medicine. That's why iso machines have dials on them.

When using the open drop box laboratory technique in the field, outside the clinic, the titration is done drop by drop. There is not a vet or a scientist in the world who can look at a snake (or a human) and say exactly how many drops or what percentage of iso it will take for them to go down in X minutes. Inhalant anesthetic doesn't work that way - ask your own doctor.

So the truth of the matter is, someone like yourself or perhaps even Kevin can be better equiped do deal with these animals than the local guy who just happens to a have veterinary degree.

You saw the licensed vet at my house supervising all of the anesthesia procedures because that is a legal requirement. He had the appropriate controlled medications. Without those drugs, it is not possible to do some procedures humanely. I do not expect that the amateur venomoider$ are shelling out for vets to attend their procedures with the appropriate drugs in hand.

I chose to have a vet on hand for comparatively noninvasive procedures in order to be certain that it was completely humane and potentially of some benefit for the animals. That in my opinion was the most ethical way to proceed with the research that needed to be done. Performing actual surgery on a snake that is not in any way for the patient's benefit, without bothering to spend extra money on veterinary supervision and appropriate pain relieving drugs, is not something I can even imagine doing.

I am very fortunate now to be working with two veterinarians who have their own clinic. So now I am able to perform simple procedures or assist with surgeries on patients in need under their supervision, with all the drugs and equipment legally available on the clinic premises. If I cared more about profit than I do about inflicting needless suffering on snakes, doubtless I could be churning out a lot of venomoids. But I expect you know that there will be snow covered igloos in Hell long before that happens.

This particular surgery is every bit as controversial in the herp world, as abortion is in the people world. But, just because many of us don't agree with doing it, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

I don't agree that people should be able to torture kittens for fun, or to spay their own dog in the garage with no pain meds to save a few bucks on a vet. If I see my neighbor doing it, I will make it very clear that I think it shouldn't be done. There are laws in this country against animal cruelty, and they need to be enforced whether the victims are cute and fuzzy or not.

Turning a blind eye to needless suffering inflicted on reptiles is not a choice I can personally make. I spend too much of my time and money trying to help venomous snakes that people have hurt. Some of them I can save and some I can't, and it still gets to me every time I lose a patient. No, I do not like the fact that there are people hurting and crippling snakes deliberately for a profit.

And if we choose to push the issue and succeed in getting this outlawed/enforced/whatever, what's next? Maybe next we'll have people pushing for no one, other than zoos, being allowed to keep venomous snakes.

In all honesty, the existence of a large number of venomoid snakes in the hands of amateur keepers is more likely to lead to negative publicity and subsequently stricter laws.

I am not suggesting that venomoids themselves should be outlawed. I am suggesting that unlicensed profit mongers who are performing cosmetic butchery on live animals at home without appropriate drugs or equipment are breaking the law.

1st off I hope everyone had a good thanksgiving and Secondly I am glad to see that this has got back to a good debate with facts involved.

It is and always will be a subject of not just Morals but of Legalities! We Know laws are there for a reason and we as a community should make certain they are enforced. If we sit back and do nothing then we are as guilty as those performing the operation without proper qualifications or licensing. Furthermore anyone worried about having a law enforced that is clearly already on the books for fear it " { MIGHT} " somehow affect the rest of the hobby needs to exam the bigger picture of the potential for even greater damage to the hobby if it is not enforced.

In this case of venomoids WE KNOW FOR FACT that some of the surgeries have gone bad and the animal was fully capable of delivering a fatal bite!!!! Hot keepers know full well the risk we take anytime we have to interact with any of the animals in our care. We take that risk yes, but use every precaution possible is used to ensure our safety as well as the animals. Where a person who has a venomoid will take much greater risk up to and including free handling. That risk in unacceptable ever in my opinion. With venomoids becoming ever so readily available it is only a matter of time before more and more bites occur and some turn out to be hot. At that point is when more restrictive laws WILL be imposed.


Scott Bice

PS Tanith if your interested I have some W/C Green iguanas from Miami that did not make it after a rescue Ray Goushaw and I were involved in. You are welcome to them if you want.

Let me say one more time, I am not personally in favor of this surgery. However, I doubt that all vets who perform this surgery use pain meds. And if they do its probably a one time dose. So imagine a hypothetical situation with me for a moment.

A person has a good working relationship w/ thier vet. Much the same way a rancher doing thier own procedures would. The person has a good knowledge of reptiles and is well trained in doing this procedure. Maybe even more qualified than the vet. I know I would have a hard time finding a vet that has performed this procedure anywhere near me. The vet is prescribing all the needed drugs and giving this person the info needed to use them properly. Much the same way our vets allow us to keep antibiotics on hand now. The person has all the needed equipment to do the procedure. And, just for the sake of this argument, the person has painkillers and antibiotics on hand for after the surgery. Should this person be forced to have this procedure performed by the vet?

I think not.

Now back to the legal side. Rattlesnake round-ups are still legal in many states. I won't even go into the horror stories which occur there. There is no great public (general public) outcry to stop them. The general public, the people sitting on the jury for the trial of the alleged animal abuser, are terrified of snakes in general. Most would pee thier pants if confronted with any one of the animals in your living room Tanith (Hell, I almost did, and I LIKE snakes). If we start really pushing this, those people are going to find out that people are keeping rooms or even houses full of reptiles in thier neighborhoods. Those people are not going to write thier congressmen to get them to pass stricter laws pertaining to venomoid surgical procedures. They could care less if a rattlesnake's mouth is sore for a couple of days or even weeks. They would probably be more than happy to put that animal "out of it's misery" themself. They ARE going to get them to pass laws making it illegal for us to keep snakes!

We should do the best job we can policing ourselves. IF (and it's a BIG if), someone can prove that Kevin (or whomever) is actually harming snakes, THEN we should let all the venomous dealers and the venomoid buying public know what is up. But, just because he is not a vet, doesn't mean that he is not capable of doing the procedure as well as someone who is. That is the point I am trying to make.

Brian.

Us Policing ourselves is a great idea. Are you willing to stop buying from ANYONE that sells or advertises for venomoids?

The only way other then legal pressure to stop these people is to hit them where it hurts the most and thats in the pocketbook.

For example if Reptiles Magazine was to offer fo sale Venomoids even though they themself do not allow it would you be willing to write them a letter and say you will no longer subscribe to their magazine. Or would you be willing to say no more Kingsnake.com or FaunaClassifieds if they allowed selling of venomoids?

If enough people banded together and write letters and say we will not support your Magazine , Store , Website so long as you sell venomoids or allow the sales then I bet sales would be dramastically cut and or even stopped in time.

Problem is how many people have the balls to do it ?

Scott Bice