Dealing with Minors

Are you trying to say that the FDA regulations and federal statutory law prohibiting the COMMERCIAL sales of turtles under 4 inches was caused by a single incident. I find it quite interesting that a single case of reptile borne salmonella caused such a stir when hundreds if not thousands of cases of salmonella are caused by dairy, chicken and egg products at least every few years. According to the FDA website, the main cause of salmonella outbreaks is related to these two types of food product. It almost makes me wonder if turtles catch salmonella from children.

As for liability, too bad the pet shop owner you speak of did not file a counter suit that may have been more interesting. Now a days, if a child or anyone comes down with salmonella after handling your animals, you had best ask that the salmonella be DNA tested to ascertain it is the same strain as that found in your animals - or better still don't ask - use it as a defense later on.

Still, my point is being missed. If you take proper precautions there should be nothing wrong with allowing adolescent children into a pet shop or herp show unaccompanied by adults. If you have a shop or otherwise show animals where they are not kept from prying hands, well that is your liability whether or not it is a child who handles the animal and whether or not the child was with an adult. In other words, yes you are responsible to keep the animals from prying hands if the animals are sick or could otherwise cause an injury. This does not require that you do not allow children into your pet store but if that is how far you wish to take it, then maybe you should look forward to the long term effects that will surely befall the industry if and when such tactics become wide spread among business owners in the pet trade. Hmm, makes me wonder though: if my son comes home from school with head lice, can I sue the school, the kid who brought them to school, the kid's parents, the person they bought the sheets from, the manufacturer of the detergent they used to clean the sheets which did not kill the lice and so on and on and on. Maybe the problem is not the kids, maybe the problem is the lawyers.

Maybe you should refuse to sell to friggin lawyers. Maybe you should send the message to your elected officials by way of a real paper letter. Maybe you should tell them how it effects your vote. Maybe you should get a few shop owners together and have them stop selling to lawyers. Then all write to the FDA and your state government about frivolous law suits and stupid turtle laws. Maybe you will get a herp society to back you, maybe then a few more herp societies. Then maybe you will have a movement - and sure enough you will get nationwide coverage, and get something done while at the same time preserving something that was meant for kids in the first place. I am sure to write yet another letter to the FDA about that stupid law once again now that I got myself going here, and heck I wrote one only about two months ago. The law got changed in the first place, and yes it can be changed again.

By the way, turtles with a carapace length under 4 inches are quite legal to own as per federal law. They are also legal to sell or trade and no I don't mean for scientific or educational purposes but for and by the pet hobbyist. See the FDA web site where it plainly states that sales between turtle fanciers have been permitted. This is the quote:

Other exceptions to the ban are the sale of turtles and turtle eggs not in connection with a business (e.g., limited sales between turtle fanciers have been permitted) ...

. Funny isn't it that people can still possess and sell/trade these creatures despite the commercial ban. I imagine if the industry raised enough hell, the law would be repealed.

Yet that does not answer the question about letting kids into your shops or shows. I agree with the original poster - don't sell herps to kid - sell the to the parents - maybe yopu missed that in my earlier post. I had no problem there, I just have a problem with people trying to keep kids out of pet shops and pet shows because they are not accompanied by an adult. I already gave my reasons. I will continue to allow children to look at my herps, and even to hold them or touch them at school shows, fairs, reptile shows, expos, and at herp society meetings. I make sure kids who handle my herps wash before and after with alcohol gel and or antibacterial soap and water. Pet events are, in my opinion, meant to include kids not to exclude them.

All the best,
GB

to occurred about 25 years ago. To answer your question, that lawsuit was the impetus for the legislation. I am fully aware that turtles are being sold that are under 4 inches, but when these suits were being brought to the attention of the health depts in the individual states, we were no longer allowed to import, transport, or sell baby turtles. Its really that simple.

This may have been before your time, but one of the biggest outlets for baby green turtles were the Woolworths and Kresgees. These were called 5 & dime stores at the time. Their were several thousand of these operations and they immediately cleared the stores of these turtles for fear of potential litigation from people who may have had other motives , or just decided to join the bandwagon of suits that were being filed. So to answer your question, yes that incident was the motivating force for what occurred back then. Maybe today, the laws have been relaxed, but most of the turtles that are bred in the numbers that we were acustomed to seeing are exported. Secondly, if the govt wanted to, they could very easily crack down on the sale of baby turtles. The fact that a sale for educational or scientific purposes was nothing more than a way of getting around the law. Finally, the argument about the dairy industry is the same one I heard when the whole thing started, and I can assure you that the poultry people did NOT support the pet industry in their efforts to ease the hysteria that was going on. They wanted to stay far away from this one, as they had their own difficulties.

With regard to this business of pet shops and kids. I understand what you are saying, but the realities dont seem to work that way. If a person falls in front of a store that contained ice from a snow fall, attorneys will sue everyone. It does not matter who was at fault, attorneys will try to collect from whom ever they can. If a child gets bit in his own home from a snake regardless of why, and that kid gets injured or sick from the bite, that could also lead to a lawsuit directily from the seller. I am sure you are smart enough to realize that we are sue crazy in this country and people have sued for the most ridiculous things.

I have better things to do than to pay an attorneys fee for some stupid suit that would arise from an inexpensive reptile because it was sold to a child. So be smart, your in a no win situation with this one. Courts have always sided with children. Just recently, a parent purchased a moped for their son, who took the motorized bike out in the street , drove around and was killed by an automobile. The driver was charged with vehicular manslaughter, the moped store was sued as well as the manufacturer by the parents...........who bought the bike in the first place. End result they lost their child. Extreme as these situations are, its the small things that you have to worry about. It can come back to kick you in the ass somewhere down the road.

Jerry,

I understand your concerns, but I think that sometimes we worry too much instead of taking action against that about which we worry. We really need to take some sort of actions against frivilous law suits and sharks in suits.

Now for the nostalgia:

This may have been before your time, but one of the biggest outlets for baby green turtles were the Woolworths and Kresgees. These were called 5 & dime stores at the time.

Ha, Ha, Ha, Hardy Ha, Ha! That made me laugh a good belly laugh and made me think of some fine memories! Before my time - nah not at all. Thanks though for the nostalgic trip back to yesteryear! Five and dime stores or five & tens were great places to get just about everything a kid wanted....... I thought it was H&S Kress but could have been Kresgees (maybe both). That was quite a while back old timer... One thing changed all of what is pertinent to this discussion since then, a law or regulation change that allowed lawyers to advertise and solicit customers. Get that law repealed, or have the ethical standards of the legal profession changed, and the law suits will fizzle. Then again since they make money by taking ours, that will not be easy to do, because you need them to beat them in most cases.

My daughter wants to become a lawyer, for all the right reasons, yet sometimes it makes me pretty queasy. I have dealt with many lawyers who were good people at one time in their lives, then I believe, some of them started to lie, swindle and cheat to win cases and line their pockets. I have even seen instances of prosecuting attorneys that have tried to get federal agents to sort of twist their testimony to make a case a winner. I don't think they were actually doing it intentionally (hell if I had I would have filed charges myself) but just that they were getting to carried away by zeal. I put a stop to it quickly as I was involved in those cases. I don't think my girl would ever get like that, but just the thought of her associating with other lawyers on a regular basis gets me worried. What a profession - it seems to me that: most lawyers only want one thing - to win - and that this takes precedence over all else - probably because winning means money in most cases (even in pro bono cases because they get the fame that leads to money later). Unbelievably bizarre, in my opinion, how law suits and lawyers seemingly have ruined good things that we once enjoyed.

Oh well, life goes on, and I keep educating children, and adults, about herps a each chance I get. I would really hate to see the average age of the herper wind up in the 40s because of fear of law suits.

All the best,
GB

I agree with your sentiments 100% to many lawsuits, to many dollar signs, but thats the way it is. Believe it or not their is a direct corrolation between higher insurance premiums and the lowering of the quality of whats being insured. Here in the state of Fla. if you want Home Insurance, one of the questions pertains to Reptiles. As a matter of fact you have to sign an affidavit releasing the insurance co. from any liability if a suit arises. Now I think this may even be spreading to other states as well.

Insofar as the 5 & dimes, I have no idea how old you are, so please consider it nothing more than a query.

But getting back to the children. I remember an incident that involved my own daughter who was with me when I was making a delivery about 30 years ago. She was my little weekend worker and traveled with me when I was selling to stores. Anyhow, I gave her the bag that contained a small Kenyan Sand Boa, which is really quite harmless. She opened the bag, took out the snake , to give it the man, and she got bit on the thumb. She dropped the snake, and I bent down to grab it, gave it to the store keeper and took a look at my daughters finger. You could see the snake bite marks, no blood, but my daughter was a bit shaken as she was never bit before. Not a big deal. We left and finished off the day of deliveries. Now had this been someone elses little girl or may have handled the snake the scenero would have or could have been quite different. I am not going to burden you with examples that may not even have any relavence
to our discussion, but time have changed, and people no longer have common sense, so they have left that to the attorneys!!!

That was a good hearted Ha, ha, ha hardy, ha ha kind of a thing...

I have worked in Pet stores for the past three years. I can tell you why most don't want kids in the stores without a parent.

When I was a kid, I remember going down to the pet store and walking around. I would never have even thought about banging on the tanks or putting my fingers where they didn't belong but now adays, people (adults and children) Don't listen and dont read. Kids love to pet the fuzzy creatures. They insist on sticking their fingers in the cages where DUH! they get bit. THen the parents raise holy hell about "rabid" animals. Now keep in mind that we had signs up that said "WE BITE" and "Please don't stick your fingers in the cages". I can remember one particular incident where the kid had been told repeatedly not to stick his fingers in the cage and his parents had been told the same thing. Well the kid got bit and the parents threw a fit. They called the health department and tried to raise a stink. We were told to keep the animal under observation and they were told, They have signs up. It could have turned out alot different.

Now yes, in all fairness I have seen adults do the same thing. We had one lady who got bit by a Ferret and when she complained I pointed out the signs and she admitted to not reading them.

Now as for the selling thing. I would never and will not ever sell to a minor without parental permission. I have seen parents come storming back into a store freaking out because their kid bought a goldfish. (No I'm not joking) We had to finally make up signs that you couldn't purchase any animal unless you were over the age of 18 or had parental permission. Yeh it got sticky with the feeders issue but usually we knew the customers after a few times and it was ok.

Granted if the kids are at a reptile show with money, then the parents most likely know he is there but I still ask. It sucks "punishing" the kids who are responsible about their purchase because you have been burned by a kid who KNOWS his parents don't want him to have a pet but gets one anyway.

It sucks "punishing" the kids who are responsible about their purchase because you have been burned by a kid who KNOWS his parents don't want him to have a pet but gets one anyway.

Unfortunately, in situations like this....... where a kid gets it, even though his parents won't allow it, it's not the kid who suffers.. it's the animal caught in the middle.

I am 14yrs old. I will be 15 next week. As I have only had 2 animals shipped I have purchased tons of herps from shows. I have been keeping reptiles since I was 4. I feel that people underestimate me. I believe that this issue is highly debatable in the sense that the seller has no idea what experience the buyer has. Even though it really upsets me that sellers sometimes treat me different than other older people but I understand where they are coming from

Mike

Mike,

thats great, and most dealers would be happy to sell to someone who appears to be as dedicated as you. My question to you, well maybe not you personally but other kids, If your parents don't have a problem with you buying a herp, why is it such a big deal to let them in on the purchase.

I tell all my customers who are looking at animals that I will not sell to anyone under 18 without a parent being present. I will ask for ID's if anyone seems to be under 18. If they balk at this it tells me that the parent is not OK with it and I would not want to sell to them anyway.

I have one exception. This kid has purchased several animals with his mom present, and she has told me that her son has her pemission to buy anything he wants.

Steve Schindler
Tropical Oasis

I have been keeping reptiles since I was 4.

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What a load of...