The Disturbing Trend of Price Slashing in the reptile hobby/industry

I'm sorry Tony. I typed so long before I commented on your post that I mis-remembered it. Sorry. Evan

Just for the record here, I worked for the Florida Game & Fish Commission (now called the Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission) for a few years and did a lot of programming for the Licensing department. I became pretty familiar with all of the licenses they issued. Believe me, fish are heavily regulated in this state. There is a huge list of them specifically mentioned by name, and many that are banned from ownership completely.

Secondly, what kind of wholesale prices are we talking about for these fish being produced by the hundreds of thousands on a 'per each' basis? The question that comes to my mind is was it the huge numbers being produced that directly resulted in the prices being forced downwards? If Mark Bell, Bill Brant, John Mack all doubled their production of leopard geckos, what would that do to the market? If any one of them offered them for sale to large buyers and the buyers said "Sorry, we can't pay you $4 each for them, but we will give you $2," then what would they likely do? Every day they keep them costs them money. 100,000 leopard geckos at $2 each is $200K. Do you think they'll just flush them down the toilet? Then what happens NEXT year?

IMHO, of course.

Wow... Evan, again you made most of my points for me, astounding.

I had relatives breeding large numbers of fish here in Michigan 40 years ago that sold to pet stores. Every store wanted everything they produced.

Because at the time... there were none of those enormous huge scale breeding operations and shipping was more difficult, they had to be started slowly and on a smaller scale, eventually leading up to those hundreds of thousands (and millions in many cases) of production numbers per species in a given year. You think there wasn't a period of time when fish farms were producing 40,000 or 50,000 aquarium fish a year? Perhaps started in some of those mid sized buildings that you equate large scale reptile breeding to?

The market certainly wasn't what is has become for the animals in question, while fish didn't experience the same stigmata that reptiles have, there was and still is a (dwindling) number of people who would never have considered keeping these animals in their home because they don't interest them, because they aren't a "pet" the way a dog or cat is, because of the cost for heating, lighting and filtration equipment needed for even a basic successful setup... You're saying that it's nothing at all like people who don't consider keeping reptiles in their home because they don't interest them, they aren't a "pet" the way a dog or cat is and because the cost for heating, lighting and humidity systems for even a basic setup is more than they're willing to pay?

Business trends have to start someplace Evan, it comes in the pet trade when a group of animals starts to become a subject more and more publicly acceptable and more and more commonplace. There was a period of time when you could read aquarium publications and virtually every species listed was "exotic" or every color morph of some of the existing species at any rate... "Exotic" Tropical cardinal tetras, "Fancy" delta tail guppies, never mind some of the species considered rare by todays standards. These animals commanded pretty hefty price tags considering their body mass, local breeders and small scale out of the garage or basement operations were really the only producers of captive bred animals... People realized there was a market in this and began larger and larger breeding operations, using them as their sole source of income, constantly seeking that next exotic and rare fish, constantly seeking to produce larger volumes of the commonplace animals... Hey, sort of like herps, who'd have figured?

No, there is no breeding facility for reptiles that produces the volume that the larger fish producers can churn out... Yet.

The numbers are going up every year, the species kept are hitting more and more households and becoming much easier to find information on or a supplier for, the drive to produce common and well known species with differences in color or pattern is increasing every year...

I'm pretty sure I never said that the herp industry was "exactly like the tropical fish industry", if I did, it was certainly a mistake on my part, I simply intended to state that there were a number of important similarities that could be used to increase the understanding of the herp market and some of the pressures that the industry as a whole has and will continue to undergo. Is it a perfect comparison? Of course not, fish tend to have much higher production numbers once you get them going than your average herp does, that pushes costs down a bit quicker, there are far, FAR more species available so it will appear as if there is a much larger pool of ideal species for the pet trade (take a look at the number of species seen compared to the total number of identified species as a percentage for both markets, you'll find fish to be far more restrictive)... As to the regulation of individual species or groups... well, I think you're a bit off base there in your statements that the only restricted species are "piranhas and snakeheads", there are virtually innumerable species of catfish, many species of cichlid, many indigenous species are tightly controlled, white cloud mountain minnows, "Mosquito Fish", goldfish, many species of marine fish have tighter import restrictions, just to name a few off the top of my head... And you will find that county, state and local laws are more restrictive than the federal laws.

As far as the thing with Seamus goes, he attacked me. I argued against his argument. He insulted me. I am not the one you need to chastise.

As far as that goes... well, this...

Seamus, your comparison is invalid and 100% FLAWED logic. How can you say that baby albino burms are selling for a better price than last year but have not recovered because they are not $5000? That is just dumb.

Was pretty insulting especially since it was the result of you misreading my post. If it was poorly worded then I brought it upon myself and I apologize but it seems that others were able to easily get my point.

Rich, I stated that there are warm areas, such as Florida and California where there are tighter restrictions on tropical species for threat of release, but I also stated that I was refering to the other 80%+ of the country where winter gets too cold for those species to exist in the wild and therefore are not a threat of developing wild populations. Florida is already populated by so many foreign species of every kind of flora and fauna, it is almost funny that they would be so concerned now when you can go to the everglades and see populations of Indonesian cobras, asian weeds and shrubs, African frogs, south American fish and so much more.

The species being produced in huge volume like oscars and piranahs are sold just like anything else, price based on quantity. Anywhere from $0.30-$2. Fish food is so much cheaper and easier to store than reptile food that it is not a big deal to handle volume of babies.

Seamus, again, I said your argument was dumb. You attacked me personally. I see you are incapable of seeing the difference but there is a huge one. And again, what do you base all your statements on? I am not proving any point sof yours at all. I am stating my background. How do you support your "facts"?

We are not now and never were talking about native fish. Different subject. Different regulations. People do not breed native fish for pets.

Leopard geckos are overproduced now. The people who are producing them could be making a larger profit if they cut their production in half. I think it is ridiculous to overproduce the animals and then beg people to buy them at below what it cost you to produce them. That is not true of fish as it is a much larger industry with more channels of distribution, a much larger retial consumption and more demand. It is also a fact that every commercial shipper of reptiles is phasing them out while the airlines welcome increasing volumes of fish shipments. In the very near future it may be impossible to legally (or to allow the shipper to know what you are shipping) ship reptiles. The government, the humane society and the airlines are working on it. Again, they see fish as a lower animal and do not find it cruelty to ship them and are not attacking the shipping of them. Just yet another HUGE commercial viability and market difference between fish and reptiles based on perception. Two major foreign airlines stopped allowing reptile shipments last year. None of the overnight carriers like Airborn, FedEx or UPS will knowlingly allow them as policy (some locations don't care). It is illegal to ship snakes and many other animals through the post office. How many options does that leave to expand reptiles as a nationwide and worldwide business?

As far as how so many people would not go to the expense or have fish in their house, that is without any factual support. I will give you a pile of facts to refute it though. The biggest retailers in the country, Walmart, K-mart, Meijers and others carry fish, fish tanks and fish tank supplies. Not one of them carries any reptiles or reptile supplies. One of the large supply chains in this part of the country, Pet Supplies Plus, carries fish, tanks and supplies in their stores all over the region. They had reptiles at one store in the area and closed it as they felt it was not justified to spend the money when the supply stores are so profitable and the fish and supplies sell much better. They eliminated the reptiles and downsized the reptile supplies in all of their stores. I can go on. Again, I will keep stating facts. Seamus can just keep stating opinions. Don't ever support them. That is just great.

Well Evan...

I guess we'll just have to wait and see who's right in ten or fifteen years as you still seem totally unable to grasp the concept I am trying to get across.

I have not said that the aquarium fish market of today is identical to the reptile indistry.

I have said that there are enough similarities between the [b]HISTORY[B/] of the aquarium fish industry and the way the herp industry works today to make some valid observations about what may be likely in the future.

If you really... really need me to go dig up yearly average market prices for aquarium fish... and really really need me to dig up sources on the growth of the aquarium industry (# of households owning an aquarium over a period of time, # of households owning a reptile or amphibian over a period of time), then I suppose I can go do so but to be honest it will entail more thought and time than I was willing to put into this.

I simply made a suggestion that information could be gleaned by looking at the long term market fluxuations and price changes as well as production numbers and standards of herps today and the similarities to what the aquarium fish market has undergone in the past. The markets are similar enough to make a brief observation on the subject worthwhile.

Well, once again I find myself posting on something that really doesn't amout to a hill of beans, but what the heck. To make things clear, I don't know who is right, or if anyone is right, nor do I care. I have a couple of observations, & like always, they are only my OPINION. 1) Just because you make a statement & call it a fact doesn't make it a fact. It might actually be a fact, but without verification who can know for sure? 2) Telling someone that their argument is dumb cannot be separated from the inference that the individual making the argument is dumb.

Damn, another senior moment, forgot to put my name in the preceeding post.

Tim Retzlaff

100% SOUND logic Tim! Merry Christmas.

Great point Tim.

No offense to you Evan, but I think you failed to realize that by calling Seamus' comparison and thinking "dumb" it was taken as a personal attack. If I told you your thinking was dumb, you would take it personally as well.
To quote the venerable(NOT venerial ) Uncle Goobs, "Just go take a midol." You guys BOTH got heated and defensive when there should have been no reason to begin with. Debate is just that, DEBATE. Differing opinions are just that, DIFFERING OPINIONS. Let's just have a friendly debate, okay?

Now, I will still agree with Seamus' comparison of the fish trade of the PAST and today's reptile trade. Back even 30 years ago alot of the CB fish that were entering the trade were from small to medium-sized breeders. People who had collections they were breeding in basements and spare bedrooms, and a few who were larger and had devoted facilities to do this were the ones moving the hobby along at that time. Sound familiar to today's herp market?

And again, I know there are more regulations involving fish than just Pirhana and Snakeheads. Look how legal it is to keep certain sharks, rays, eels, and catfish. Just because you COULD keep a Great White, do you think that you would be allowed without tons of redtape? As I said, there is probably just as much if not MORE fish regulation out there. However, reptiles are more "marketable" when it comes to press. Someone getting bit by an oscar would not make headline news, but if someone got nailed by even a medium-sized boa it can be almost earth-shattering(please feel free to call that comparison "dumb" ).

There is just no similarities anywhere near those that you people seem to think exist. Quote me ONE example of a genetic mutation of a fish in the United States, in any year that sold for anywhere near the amount of money that snakes do every time there is a new variant. You can't it never happened. A new albino African cichlid sells for a few hundred dollars and within months there are thousnads and they are $10-20 retial. An extremely expensive fish today is in the hundreds of dollars. The absolute top end Koi in Japan, to collectors are in the thousands. That is less than a percent of the market. In the reptile trade there are hundreds of projects in the multi hundred to multi thousand dollar range. There have been how many ball pythons that have fetched $50,000 to $250,000? I know of many (Pete Kahl and Ralph Davis on the high end for example). I know several people that have dozens of snakes in their collection that they paid huge money for. So regardless of then or now the comparrison does not work.

You can keep telling me that there are more fish regulations than reptile but still you don't know what they are, can't state any specifics, just "I know there are". Well, you are wrong. It is simple. The fish industry, much like the dog industry has thousands of times the money to spend over the herp biz. Last year in this counrty, consumers spent over 2.5 billion dollars on dog and cat related FOOD and DRY goods, not even the animals themselves. The entire reptile trade in this country is in the low millions. So there are thousands of times the money in dog/cat lobbies than in reptile ones. That is why 7 attempts to ban pit bulls in New York City have been struck down, but alligators and many other herps were banned the first vote out. Ed Coch even failed at a huge campaign to ban pits, but because the dog trade feared that as foot in the door legislation, they spent millions and struck it down

You can go to any pet store near me and see nurse sharks, morey eels, large piranah, stingrays, large arrowanas, red tail cats and many other large, exotic species. All legal. All imported legally. You can import thousands of fish for hundreds of dollars in freight. You can import a hundred reptiles for thousands of dollars in freight. There is just nothing similar except that they are parts of the pet trade. Of total pet store and supply sales in the United States reptiles are less than 10% on average (some 5%, some %15% as stated in trade publications) in every region. Some regions, particularly those where it is colder in the winter are higher than those are that more mild as people are looking for more indoor activities.

There are extensive regulations on importation, shipping and transportation of venomous reptiles. Many cities and states now have a large number of restrictions on them and some are even banned. There are no such restrictions on fish. The spines of catfish, the spines of lion fish, the venom of stone fish, wolf fish and others, the viscious bite of large catfish and many others. It is ironic that the piranah is one of the most skidish, least likely to bite a human, most jumpy fish of all and that is the one feared dangerous to humans. African cichlids and South American cichlids which are probably the two fastest growing areas of collected fish suffer no restrictions in this country. While at the same time every day there seems to be more cities that ban crocodilians, large constrictors and venomous reptiles.

The comment about the great white shark was really just ridiculous. Do you even know what CITES is? But on a serious note, what about squid that can tear up a persons hand and octopi that are extremely venomous? I'm sorry but the two industries are just not very similar. And again you guys are not contributing to anything that shows they are, just saying that I'm wrong and your right.