The Disturbing Trend of Price Slashing in the reptile hobby/industry

I say Broker like its a dirty word, and I am sorry but for the vast majority of them ,I feel like it IS.

There good and bad out there but you cant use it like its a dirty word. I mean come on Fred thats the same logic the KKK uses for its agenda. Theres good and bad in all. I think you may confusing brokers and importers or lumping them togther. I look at it differant, I see brokers and then I see importers. Theres alot of brokers out there that have just as high qaulity stuff as you or I. The area your in is one of the largest ports in the US. Yours and Fl are the top two in the US, so I think thats why your seeing so much of it. I used to as well back home because there was a ton of stuff coming through NYC. But there was a lot more brokers then importers. It was the importers selling the sickly dieing for super dirt cheap prices, thats why I started my whole imports thing. Collecting all those photos, I dont have them on the net anymore because the humaniacs stole them. But I still display them at shows to try and educate people. My freinds always tease me thats the reason I never sell much, because people walk away from my table sick to their stomach. But sometimes that harsh blunt in your face reality is the only thing thats going to make some people think. I gotta agree with Napa Valley, Ive watched this market go through up and down swings for years. Its similar to the stock market. I think were headed for a down swing now. everything has come to a head, there no where to go but down. Take the albino burms for example, I dont know about any where else but 3yrs ago you could buy them wholesale $15 each. Retail was $29.99 at the shows out east. They were seriously on every other table. People got scared, some people who were only in it for the money and everyone dumped their animals. Well 3yrs later look at the come back they have made. Theres not nearly as many on the market as there was. I think the cycle is starting to repeat again only this time I dont think it will be limited to a few species like it was last time, burms, jcps etc. I think there alot of stuff going to tank because now not only are we dealing with the cycles of this market but there less money because the economy sucks. So I dunno, anyway im off to bed later on.

OK, if there are good and bad brokers out there, how do you know who is who?? I think a list of the "good and bad" would be helpful. There are a lot of unknowns out there that feel they have to sell their animal cheap just to sell them, even if they have the "exact" same bloodlines as the "big names". It hard to compete with the "BIG NAMES". Now these "unknowns" sell their animals cheap and get labled "LOW BALLERS". That doesn't seem fair. Also if they sell to the "wrong or bad" broker it's just as bad. So, how would the "average unknown" sell their snakes?? Most people want to save money, but would only buy from an unknown if the "price is right!" It's a vicious circle from what I can see. I guess everyone just needs to sell their animals for a price they feel is fair.

The BOI is a great tool for finding out about people. This is a very tight knit community.

I think the effort it takes to sell your animals when you first start is a sort of baptism in fire to weed out the ones that won't take the effort. Building a name for yourself is supposed to be hard, most things that have value are.

You'd be amazed at how many established breeders are willing to help out someone new in then industry if they have the right attitude, show the correct values, and put forth a lot of effort.

A lot of small time breeders start out wholesaling to larger breeders/brokers. This allows them to build up the capital to be able to ride the market flux (I think most low ballers have to price that way to move stock quickly because they have no cash reserves and are operating on minimal if any profit margins) and build up a name.

Jason, etc.

I've met SOME good brokers, people that sell healthy well represented animals, but I have met and seen a lot of brokers, not the "SHARKS" that Stephen from Napa valley has said that I confuse them with. Think of them as a halfway point between the SHARKS, which are easily discerned and a good broker.


There are people that come to the shows, plunk their CRAP down on the table, cheap and sell it all to an unknowing and uncaring public(The price is the mauin thing)

Then there are brokers, who are well known, sell a lot of snakes, and if you go to their facilities, you want to throw up. Of course, if you buy off the net, you would nebver know this, and neither would most of your friends because these guys dont have people that arent close friends just "dropping by" and for good reason.




Jason, your analogy about the kkk:There good and bad out there but you cant use it like its a dirty word. I mean come on Fred thats the same logic the KKK uses for its agenda.


the KKK uses a mans SKIN COLOR as a test of character, something he cant control and shouldnt even be factored in anyway...........

But brokers have a choice on how they want to be perceived, as good honest sources for quality snakes...or as lieing cheating sacks of crap that hustle near dead snakes


I think theres both good and bad....unfortunately I am VERY hesitant to try new ones less I make an error in judgement that costs me what few dollars I have. The ones I KNOW from takeing this chance with in the past(With LOTS of recommendations from others) such as Joe Debewski, are the ones I would use if I wanted an animal that is not fronm the breeder.

Personally...I like dealing DIRECTLY with the breeder, the majority of my snakes were procured in this fashion, and I prefer it as such. That is my choice and suits me just fine. You dont like it or dont agree with it, tough luck,lol

But I do agree there are good and bad brokers out there, like I said, if I cant get it from a breeder, than I refrence the few individuals that I know and truly trust as brokers and buy from them.

When I STARTED this thread, I was just sharing some insight into how I FELT about the direction of this industry, and where it MAY be going. Iam glad that it has provided so much interchange between both breeders and brokers and hope it continues, but I feel that from the beginning I have had to be on the defensive to support my *OPINIONS* and feelings, with a multitude of people condemning them. Thats not what I came here for, so my work on this thread is done.

Thanks

Fred Albury
AZTEC REPTILES

Fred - My post is in no way an attack on you, but my interpretation of what I deciphered from your words... You make some legitimate points in your posts, I just disagree on the role brokers are playing in the softening of the reptile market.
Doesn't mean I want you to quit posting on the topic you started..

With that being stated, Jason makes another great point with his Albino Burm example.
Several years ago there were so many people breeding these things that they being sold at shows for less than the price of a dozen mice.. This year some of the bigger reptile wholesalers/retail stores couldn't find enough of them to satisfy their customers and the price increased..

So yes, there are alot of people blowing out animals at rock bottom prices right now (market dictates it), but soon enough we'll see the rock-bottom dealers disappear and the market return.

As for the broker issue, well if someone is a well-known broker dumping sub-standard animals onto an unsuspecting public, my opinion is they'll end up eliminating themselves in the long run.
People don't forget bad transactions..

Just me two-cents,

Stephen Emerick
Napa Valley Snakes

Fred I hope you havnt taken offense, weve gone back and forth before but I am just stating it the way I see it. I am in no way tring to attack your veiws or put you on defense, just trying to have a peacefull debate. I agree with some of what your saying but just think your a little broad in the way you term brokers.

the KKK uses a mans SKIN COLOR

My point exactly, they use something they shouldnt to judge a whole group of people. Its along the same lines, because of a few bad brokers youve seen or dealt with your lumping them all togther. I used to do the same thing with importers, I hated them all because of a few. Well live and learn, theres good and theres bad.

sell it all to an unknowing and uncaring public

Its alway going to be that way Fred if there money to be made theres always going to be sharks, bad brokers, bad breeders etc to try and claim some. The only thing any of us can really do is ride the cycles of the market out good or bad and do the best we can to educate everyone we can. Education is the key in ANYTHING! I hope you dont take any of that wrong Fred I am not attacking you, to me this thread is a debate and thats all I am doing. Take care Jason

Just a little more to add to what Dan had to say to Linda about newcomers...
I agree with everything said and have another suggestion. One of the best ways to network and get your name out there is to do shows. At shows you get to meet a lot of the "big names", who can be valuble help and tools for you. If you go to a show, have quality animals and a nice setup (these are the keys), others notice it and try to help you out. Word of mouth is a great thing in this biz. Everyone likes to see a newcomer that cares and has quality--it is a welcomed relief to the fly-by-nighters that dump a bunch of you know what on the table. You can earn respect very quickly.

Also, brokers can be breeders as well--many of the "big names" actually buy from the "newcomers" and help goes both ways. I wholesale to a lot of breeders and do exchanges.

As for the "bad broker" vs the "good broker"--well there is the same spit when it comes to breeders--there are plenty of "bad breeders" out there as well. So dealing directly with a breeder does not mean that you are safe. In fact, most of my worst purchases over the years have been from breeders, not brokers.

Dana

I only breed cornsnakes, and I only do so small-time and as a hobby, so there's no real interest for me as a business. But my animals are on the high end of the price range. Being in cornsnakes, I looked at the prices of those who are making a living at breeding corns, and based my prices on those.

I have a couple of my adults up for sale and one person even emailed me asking, "what's the lowest possible price you'd accepts for [that individual]." No sale.

Part of it is that I believe I could make a little more instead of low-balling it, part of it is knowing that I'm not destroying their ability to support themselves by doing what they love, and part is knowing that I won't get any idiot buyers who are ignorant enough to think the lowest price is the best deal. I don't want that kind of customer and as a hobbyist it is a luxury that I can afford not to have them as customers. I will not sell disposable animals, and I supply all possible information about them to my buyers which I believe is the added value that is worth paying for.

That's my "business model."

But... a lot of this thread is downright scary!

People saying they are selling animals for the cost of a couple meals? I have to ask what brand of caviar and lobster you are feeding these poor snakes?

And people complaining about the market being controlled by consumers? GASP!

Umm.. so far I've been subjected to 3 things that are not controlled by consumers, and it scares the hell out of me: the post office, the phone company, and the airlines. I stopped using the airlines (I used to fly a lot) and am disconnecting my phone this week. I am also debating filling my mailbox with that foam junk you use to seal up windows because they refuse to acknowledge that my name is not "resident." I'm really sick of getting the worst possible service, and being literally forced to pay for it. It sucks. That is what happens when the consumers do not control the market. Stop complaining, it could be much worse.

Not everything SHOULD be a way to make a living. I would scoff at anyone who wanted to make a living selling buggy whips door-to-door, and I have somewhat the same attitude toward anyone who feels that the market has the responsibility to make sure they can put food on their table doing whatever it is they want to do. Not that everyone here has expressed that sentiment, but I've perceived it in quite a few of the posts here.

For me this is a hobby. I think it would be interesting to make a living at it, but I don't think it'll last. Right now there's a big boom in popularity of reptile pets. But it cannot grow forever, there's a point at which the market reaches saturation, at which everyone who's ever going to seriously keep herps is already keeping them... just like the current state where people who are already dog people already have dogs.

It's not like we can take the current state of things and extrapolate to say, "in 20 years, 150% of homes will have reptiles... or to put it in simpler terms, that's 3 out of every two people." It just doesn't happen like that. If you are serious about making a business, it behooves you to understand that as part of your business model.

I think you should consider yourself lucky that you are in fact able to make a living at it, for any length of time. Don't lose your grip on reality.... in the end, it is all about the consumer. The market does not exist to supply you with a way to make a living. It exists to supply consumers with what they want, period. If they want dirt-cheap disposable pets (no matter how much that disgusts you or me) that is what the market will supply them with. If that is the only possible way to make a business work and that goes against your ethics, then you best be looking for a job.

Personally, I believe it will stabilize and when everyone figures out their own niche, a very small number of people will be able to make a living breeding herps. The rest of us will have careers and keep breeding as a hobby. I also believe that if the entire thing were controlled by hobbyists who had no qualms about losing 100% of their sales over ethical issues and whose ONLY interests were the betterment of the animals themselves, there wouldn't be any issues like this.

But if there's room for people who can make a living doing what they love, more power to them.

Just don't ever complain that the market is controlled by consumers, that really yanks my chain. :P

Another problem is the economy in general. A person that got laid of from his or her job can not justify spending the kind of money most herps cost, but if someone offers it to them at what looks like a bargain than they will spend the money without realizing the cost of maintenance. I believe the piss poor economy is what is driving prices down; for instance most bearded dragons are being sold for 1/2 or 1/4 of what they where going for last year even though the colors are getting better. I have found myself selling lower than what I have in maintenance but you have to draw the line somewhere. I do not know how many times a week I get a e-mail from some one wanting a 6 month old dragon and shipped for just $50, I will e-mail them as nice as I can be, stating that with the price of cages, tanks, lighting, electricity, crickets, mealworms, waxworms, kale, collard greens, mustard greens, etc. that I can not possibly sell them for that price, then days later they e-mail back stating that so and so will sell for that price or cheaper. Or I will get the e-mail from someone stating that they are down on there luck and would I be nice enough to just give them one if they pay the shipping and then I have to break there heart telling them if they can not afford the price of the dragon then how will the be able to maintain it. I also understand what others are saying about cutting cost and corners, I just recently went to the Atlanta reptile show and was shocked by some of what I seen. There where several breeders there with bearded dragons and mali uro.'s that were paper thin, and young kids with there parents where milling around these booth's buying them in droves because the prices were the lowest.

This is where planning comes into play. The economy will go through it's up and downs. Building a business plan that will weather an economic slow down is the difference between one year wonders and those that have been around for years.

Speaking of planning, make sure to plan your cricket purchases around holiday season shipping