The Disturbing Trend of Price Slashing in the reptile hobby/industry

Most of the balls I sold went to pet stores, and to them price IS the most important factor.[/QUOTE

not to every pet store. I have not and never will purchase adult recent WC ball pythons at any price. (I don't even mess wit imported babies) Some of the adults I purchase from customers are undoubtably WC but they are established and feeding. I may have been willing to buy all of your CBB babies, but 125.00 is a little steep for normal balls.

Some went to the public and they were warned (it's just my policy).

So your policy is "give me $15.00 for this snake, it might never eat for you but thats your problem

Personally, I'd rather buy three of them for $60, feed them, and then sell all three of them for $100-150 each.

Thats fine, but you have already said that you might not even take the time to feed them, or even try to feed them. You have even admitted to selling animals that the only thing you know about them is that they are breathing.

I'm not saying that you don't have the right to run your business this way but to me it is very irresponsible.

Just my opinion

Steve Schindler
Tropical Oasis

Brian,

Question for you. How much repeat business does this get you? There is definitely more than one way to do business and be successful. I bank heavily on repeat business (customers are expensive to get when you consider the time and money spent on marketing, customer service etc).

I see certain chameleon breeders at shows out here on the west coast that are higher in price but due to reputation they always do well at the shows. And I see many posts online about their animals and recommendations to purchase from them. This to me reads as "free" advertisements (not really free as it takes time to build that reputation).

There are two philosophies (sp?) on weathering hard economic times. The first (yours) is keep your prices extremely low and push volume. The second is get decent prices when the times are good so you don't have to fire sale your animals when things slow down and just ride out the low times. Both work, but in light of pushing repeat sales I believe (just personal opinion) that the second is the preferred method.

It is good to see that you tell your customers the truth, but do you tell them that it will cost them about $450 worth of wild caught red amazons before they get one to really feed and not regurgitate. Plus how much it will cost taking it to the vet. The trouble you get from wild caughts is not worth it compared to a captive. A captive born red amazon for $450 is worth it because you know it will live. The wild caught animals that you are selling will die 90% of the time. I don't even want to know how many wild caught ball pythons are brought in to the US each year. But I know for sure that most of those end up dead. It is not your fault for selling wild caught animals. We all do. You are not bad because you are trying to make money, but your reasoning doesn't make much sense to me. I don't know what state you are in, but out here in California we are more than happy to pay $8 for a feeding corn. Most the time I pay $10, as long as it is honestly feeding. And as far as "market integrity", that also effects the lowballers. You are not the only person that can sell them at low prices. Many other people will eventually lowball you until no body wants to sell that animal any more because it is worthless. Then what happens. You guys move on to the next animal and ruin prices on them. We all buy the wild caught animals at the same price. It just feels better when you actually treat them right before sending them out. Medicate them, get rid of the ticks, make sure they are actually feeding. I really doubt if you told your customers the actual truth they would by the wild caught animal. There are many bussinesses that make sure there wild caught animals are healthy before they are sold. A very good example would be pro exotics. The water monitors they sell are one of the best, and guess what they are wild caught. But cared for. You may sell your reptiles at the shows in Florida, but it seems you may be better suited to sell them at swap meets. Selling animals that are going to die and super low prices only makes you a temporary dollar. Return bussiness and quality is what should be the most important.

Sorry for the long post.
Tony Alles

Steve, yes, after I have warned the customer about all those problems, and $15 still sounds better than $35, I have no problem taking their money. The $125 animal was a farm raised pastel, and I sold it last weekend for $150. As far as the amazons, I don't know what your experience is with them, but of the 150 or so I have bought over the past 3-4 years, THREE (including one "captive born" one I bought at the Atlanta Expo) have not fed. The two wild caughts that did not feed eventually died, but I've had worse luck than that with corns.

Dwedeking, I have many repeat customers, some for the wholesale stuff, some for the c.b. stuff. I think what helps me out there is the fact that I am 100% honest about this business and what I do. I offer no guarantees on wholesale and I tell people that upfront. I sometimes give a feeding guarantee on captive born, and have dealt with a few customers over that. Yes, every once and awhile I do have a very pissed off customer. But, usually they don't have a leg to stand on because I tell them up front no guarantee, that's why it's 40% less than the other guy.

Tony, I don't know where you're buying your amazons from, but the ones I get have no where near the problems you're talking about. As stated above, over 150 purchased in the past 3-4 years. 2 dead, 1 still alive but refusing to eat, and that one I paid top dollar for because it was captive born. That being said, I just had a clucth of babies born from a female I bought gravid, 13 big beautiful babies. Not a one of them wants anything to do w/ mice yet. I will still have them for sale this weekend, and I will just let people know they haven't fed yet ( but then again they are only 2 wks old.). I even have one stunning solid red one, that I'll let you have for $250.

I sell the corns in FL.

I really do tell the truth about what the animals are and what I know about them. I probably talk as many people out of buying animals as I do talking people into it. If you even see me at a show look at the cages. Stuff that is c.b. is marked, and stuff that is w.c. and often confused with c.b. is marked w.c. (like balls). I never said I mistreated animals, but the truth is I pick up many animals the Friday before the show, do I run home and shotgun them full of wormer? NO, in many cases they don't even need it. I think a lot of people that bash w.c. animals really know very little about them. If I do end up bringing and animal home and it looks like it could benefit from a little panacur and flagyl, it gets it. W.C. does not always mean bad folks. EVERY SINGLE animal in your collection can have it's lineage traced back to the wild, so get off the captive born only high horse.

Okay, I've enjoyed this thread so far and have remained quiet through 8 pages. So, let's see if I can muddy the waters a bit and cause some confusion and introspective thinking. (Please, don't throw solid objects my direction or attempt to shoot your monitor thinking it'm in there.)

Hypothetical situation (and one I could find myself in easily based upon my present knowledge of the area in which I live but unlikely as I hesitate quickly to handle this animal):

I go out this coming spring and collect a small adult group of albino timber rattlesnakes, say 2.6 (yes, extremely possible from multiple reports and granted access to the right den areas where this probably wouldn't even dent the population.) With these animals I attempt captive breeding, but all attempts fail even though I am assured that the conditions are as they should be. Now, come September, all 6 females drop 100% albino litters. Now, since I have an over-abundance of offspring that I don't need and don't care to keep, and my licenses and permits allow me to sell these animals, I begin to set prices based upon market research.

There is first a question of how to label these offspring. Are they WC, CB or farm bred. Not captive bred since the breeding obviously didn't take place in my captivity. But, they're not wild caught as that particular label would only apply to the original adult stock (which may be sold as WC or released back into the wild depending upon various legal issues or circumstances.) Farm Bred would imply that the females were known to be gravid when collected and done so simply for that purpose. These offsping were conceived in the wild, but were CB (captive born.) And since I have them, I can actually sell them for whatever price I deem appropriate, regardless of the desires of others worldwide who may be offering similar animals as long as I represent them to prospective buyers honestly. Would I be a bad guy for doing this or just darned lucky? It's all based on opinions. Then ask if it differs if I keep the adults, or even some of them, to breed the next year as well as a few of the offspring in order to establish a captive colony for breeding/selling purposes? Would it matter if I was able to recapture albino females the following year with the same results while also producing offspring from the adults in my collection provided I made certain to label them accurately and represent the offspring honestly? Perhaps I'd be wrong to offer them at the same price, but when market saturation is taken into consideration, if the prices are lower than the previous year by an honestly represented amount, wouldn't that be my perogative?

<end hypothetical scenario>

We happened upon a similar situation a few years ago and, as fate would have it, the babies were ball pythons. Now, we did have a group of adults at that time but they did not breed for us that year as we had cycled them wrong. They went through the motions but to no avail. We were able to secure some farmed imports, extremely clean and healthy which we held for at least 3 feedings and one shed before even announcing to the public we had them available. Later that year, after having them for at least 3 months, we attended a show and offered these for sale at a price which was higher than freshly arrived import babies but less than true captive bred. We sold all but 1 of the 5 we took and other breeders were astonished that these could look so good. We even had their feeding schedules set to where we fed them all pre-killed around lunchtime on Saturday for everyone to witness who was interested. They were larger and cleaner than most of the captive born balls at the show and we were able to sell them for less. We did not label them as CB, just ball pythons. If asked, we were able to tell prospective buyers that these were farmed and brought into the country 3 months ago and had been in our care X amount of time. No problems and we were happy right along with the buyers. Haven't messed with a large number of babies like that for a couple of years due to time constraints, but I'd love to do so again if the situation was right. So, while they aren't on my list of animals I'm looking to breed this year, I'd love to be able to offer excellent quality animals that are well cared for, correctly represented and heathy for a fair amount this next year. Would that make me a bad guy driving down the market? Perhaps to some...but to others who get a top notch animal that will live for years under proper conditions on their end, we'll probably get repeat business. Heck, part of the reason I'm considering it is that people in our area have been asking now for 2 years and are still asking since our prices and the quality of the animals offered still beats the pet shops within driving distance.

David Jobes
(if it's a bit erratic and hard to read, please excuse this as it's late and I really should be in bed)

David,

First, I don't feel there is anything unethical that you did or that Brian does. As long as you are honest to the prospective buyer concerning your experience with the animal and it's condition/status.

I would label the animals as Captive Born to be upfront about how they came into existence. The reason that CBB (captive bred & born) should carry a higher price is because the breeder should have provided a much more structured enivironment to ensure a healthy breeding female. Next on the list would be Captive Born animals because the breeder can provide a healthy environmnet for the babies even if the care of the female during pregnancy was less than perfect (being transported etc). WC means you have little knowledge of the animals upkeep and should be worth less. Selling any of these animals is fine as long as your upfront about their status.

I disagree with Brian's business plan but only on the basis of economic factors not ethics. It's his right to price the animals at any price (even a loss if he so desires). I just have a different philosophy to achieve the goals. I own another business that I came in as being lower in price and concentrating on volume. I've found that a large percentage (not all) of people that bought these services at "wholesale" rates were more problem oriented than the ones I was able to sell at "retail" rates. Maybe those spending more money put more thought into exactly what they wanted and therefore were able to get what suited them as opposed to a more impulse purchase that did not fill their needs down the road. A person with "buyers regret" will start looking for problems with a produce/service/animal.

All of this is just my opinion

I have stayed away from this post because I have no desire to insult anyone or upset anyone, but this post is just ignorant on so many levels. I have been in this business for over 15 years. It has not changed one bit in the area that you are discussing. There is a very simple equation. If you are so "alarmed" by this you should open your eyes and look around because this is SOP.

Simple: the real people in this industry who will be in a sustained business and will stay for the long haul keep their prices where they want them. The people who are just trying to get rid of something sell quick at low prices. No breeder with any substantial investment in a project sells the animals at cut rate prices and in the end people usually realize that the guy with the higher price is in most cases the better guy with the better animal and he will be there in a couple years if you need him again.

If you feel so threatened and "empty" due to this, then do what we have all done and buy the under priced animals from said person and sell them at the price you want, there by eliminating that person as a variable on your market value. Evan Stahl

I forgot to mention, there are actually a ton of animals that have gone very far up in price the past two season! Many are at 10 year highs! Pastel balls went up from last year. All baby burmese python morphs are selling much higher than they have in years. Ring pythons, brazilian rainbow boas, cal kings and so many more. Albino honduran milks and albino nelsons milks were higher this year than last. There are so many examples it is almost funny. This is probably the year that I have seen the least "price slashing."

I believe that this industry, like so many others, has fallen victim to the internet. Yes the internet can generate sales and it is convenient but look at the pressure to sell. How many years ago, did you have to know a breeder or wait for the next reptile show or make a special trip to a breeder to be able to purchase a top notch reptile. Now in the span of 5 minutes or less, a deal can be made and consummated. This sounds great on the surface but when you look at it, it causes a new pressure for breeders. I have bought and sold many snakes over the internet. Sometimes getting burned but most of the time trying to deal with reputable people. I have seen prices fall this year like no other year in the past. It is the animals that I am concerned about. It is a lot easier to forget about a $50 burmese python than a $150 burmese python. Just some thoughts.

The internet is a two edged sword. It does allow a buyer to price shop. But more important from my prespective, you can greatly increase the number of people that your available to sell to (which is the hardest part of a niche market).

I find shows much more pressure oriented. You only have 1 or 2 days to sell, while on the internet if someone doesn't like my pricing I can wait until the next inquiry comes in without stressing about deadlines. I've seen a lot of "fire sales" during the last few hours of a show, where I know breeders barely covered costs (if that) just so they wouldn't have to take the animals home.

I agree with Evan, that those that will be around year after year will be the ones that charge what they will and ride out the ups and down of the market.