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Old 10-23-2012, 04:41 PM   #151
adder
Imajacobian, you wrote:
"Instead we get go to my FAQ's."
My apologies it is not the answer you wanted, but it is the answer you got.
Plenty of answers to all your possible questions, without risk of lies and misinformation polluting the webpages.

Venomoid snakes paper photos.
 
Old 10-23-2012, 05:28 PM   #152
Lucille
Quote:
Originally Posted by adder View Post
When I look at web forums I see an endless lot of dribble prostituted as truth
That is amazingly perceptive. And beautifully said, too.
The problem is that each side believes they have a monopoly on the truth.
But if you look hard enough, you can usually find that in most disagreements, each side does indeed have a little bit of the truth by the tail. And just as in real prostitution, it's how the tail is used that determines its value.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucille View Post
Well, if your goal is to have a conversation and not be a control freak, let people have their say. There are other opinions besides yours, and some of them may be equally or more valid. Listen.

I believe there is no good reason for venomoid surgery and that one is hurting the snake and asking for trouble by doing said surgery. My opinion is every bit a valid as yours, and by trying to control what I think, and what other people think, you are merely creating a justifiably poor rep for yourself.

A piece of advice, and it's free: Don't come out swinging and putting folks down. I mean really, if you do that, what did you expect in return?
 
Old 10-23-2012, 06:01 PM   #153
hadenglock
taken from your venomoid snakes paper photos "operating plank"
you mean a 2x4 with some nails sticking out of it. i hope thats disposable, how do you properly sanitize a surface like that? another piece taken from your website "As a procedure it is remarkably simple and while it would be generally advised that a qualified veterinary surgeon perform the operation, this is not necessarily essential or for that matter the most important requirement." you really believe that invasive surgery can be done by someone else than a veterinarian? Dont you think that ruins the reputational idea that we as an industry should try to keep our standards high? Dont you want the absolute best for your animals by ensuring there safety when being surgically operated on? This is just like arguing that the general public can give the rabies vaccination to there own pets. Sure some people will do it correctly, but many others will do it wrong. Im sure your animals are perfectly fine after you do the surgeries, but your stimulating the idea that its okay for pretty much anyone to do these surgeries who have a scalpal and some suture, which will ultimately lead to improperly performed surgeries that can have risky outcomes.
 
Old 10-23-2012, 06:28 PM   #154
Lucille
Quote:
Originally Posted by hadenglock View Post
risky outcomes.
Risky, painful, and possibly fatal, to snake or people.
 
Old 10-23-2012, 06:53 PM   #155
AbsoluteApril
Personally, I'm still trying to wrap my head around this statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by adder View Post
Anyone who puts the welfare of their snakes first free handles instead of using metal sticks to attack snakes.
I handle my (non-venomous) aboreal snakes with hooks. Based on their attitude and how they react, this appears to cause much less stress to the snakes than when I use my hands (and not for lack of soft handling technique, but because of the heat of my hands). My observation. I'd be interested to look at your sources, if you have some, in regards to free-handle vs hook.
 
Old 10-23-2012, 06:58 PM   #156
adder
Hadenglock
You wrote:
“Im sure your animals are perfectly fine after you do the surgeries”
Yes
“but your stimulating the idea that its okay for pretty much anyone to do these surgeries”
No – I never said that. In fact I wrote (and you quoted):
“it would be generally advised that a qualified veterinary surgeon perform the operation”
Thus there is no need for you to put spin or interpretation on an explicit statement!
All the best
Absolute April, I am not at your facility so cannot comment on what you observe.
I can however state that thermally, the human hand is generally far better for a snake than a usually too cold or hot hook or other metal implement, so on that basis alone is the better handling implement.
Added to that the fact a hand can contour to fit the animal, it wins hands down. That others agree with me is seen by the general preference by everyone to handle non-venomous snakes by hand. I have never seen a Corn Snake handled with tongs!
Your inferences that sticks are superior to hands as a handling tool for the snake’s welfare is therefore patently false.
All the best
 
Old 10-23-2012, 07:13 PM   #157
AbsoluteApril
Quote:
Originally Posted by adder View Post
I can however state that thermally, the human hand is generally far better for a snake than a usually too cold or hot hook or other metal implement, so on that basis alone is the better handling implement.
hook is in the snake room so it's a nice 70-75 degrees just like everything else. (and yes, I've used it for my corn snake before lol)
to clarify I am speaking of a HOOK not TONGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by adder View Post
Your inferences that sticks are superior to hands as a handling tool for the snake’s welfare is therefore patently false.
well.. in your opinion. I guess that is the part missing from your first statement which seemed like you were stating a proven fact.
 
Old 10-23-2012, 07:48 PM   #158
Lucille
Quote:
Originally Posted by adder View Post
Description of our venomoid operations as subpar is not supported by the evidence, which is a perfect record of results and happy healthy snakes.
This rings false, how do you know your snakes are 'happy'?
And I doubt your perfect record, so I'm calling it a lie. In the medical profession, despite skill, technology, and training, no surgeon has a perfect record. There are always some surgeries with unforeseen problems, contaminated or non-properly-working equipment, and days when despite experience, the surgeon has an off day.
 
Old 10-23-2012, 08:02 PM   #159
Fangthane
This guy reminds me of the clowns at BallBids. Making contradictory and self-serving statements, with no basis in any sensible plane of reality. And he even has a magic link that'll dispel any arguments. Deja-vu all over again.

'Oh, you don't agree with me? Here, just have a look at my handy-dandy link. This'll explain it all. Quantifiable data? Crikey, mate, who needs that!? I said it, so it must be the truth.'

Such an accomplished attention-whore has no qualms about prostituting his own ideas as facts. He's shown an inclination to do little else. That, and blatantly anthropomorphize snakes to try to back up his ridiculous claims. He's very quick to say that he knows what makes snakes "happy". It's a shame that he doesn't carry that anthropomorpization to it's logical conclusion, regarding his surgical butchery: amateur surgery, done with crude instruments, without pain medications, and without professional surgical training, leads to pain and misery.

Gotta get a good chuckle out of someone that's not honest enough to admit he's already been soundly beaten.
Attached Images
 
 
Old 10-23-2012, 08:06 PM   #160
adder
The three last posts are akin to creationism arguments from Christian Fundamentalists.
I clearly cannot reason with any of them - ever!
If making "noise" wins an argument, you definitely win hands-down!
All the best
 

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