BHB reptiles "het" didn't prove out, won't fix it

I'm shocked this hasn't been cleared with knowledge to all parties... I will never click on a BHB ad again based on response timing; or lack thereof?? Get a smart/dumb phone for a couple hundred??

Originally Posted by David Bellis

But really, so what? What does it matter if I was asking for $1,000,000 or a normal corn snake. Brian agreed to it and then wouldn't follow through.

The "so what" is that it makes your case seem more credible if you are asking for fair compensation. If you had said "well, I produced 'x' amount of eggs, and, in theory, every one of those could have been a honey bee, valued at 'y' dollars..." You didn't do that, and posting what you asked for in compensation provides more information and more credibility to your argument. And since he agreed to it, I'd say you have a valid complaint.

Originally Posted by David Bellis

I have nothing to hide here, I just didn't think it would be necessary to post 45 emails in the thread. If I'm a little defensive it's probably because I knew I'd be spending lots of time defending myself against people who had nothing to do with this transaction. I think this thread would be very different if I weren't saying something about BHB but maybe I'm crazy.

I think had you made the post about any well known breeder you'd be doing a lot of defending yourself. I'm not saying that's the way it should be, but it's the way it is. I've dealt with several larger breeders who I wouldn't do business with again, and I'm sure if i posted about them, I'd end up having the same problems you are.

Originally Posted by David Bellis

Why? Brian has known the history from start to finish and if this was a scam or if I'm slandering him then please, sue me. I've shown a mountain of evidence and can't even get a response from Brian and yet you're all grilling me. And then you wonder why I'm defensive.

If you look at what I said, I don't think you are trying to scam anyone. I asked you to look at it from the viewpoint of an outsider looking in. this is a public forum, and there's a whole lot of outside looking in that happens.

Originally Posted by David Bellis

Yes, Brian knew all of the details from start to finish. Telling someone you'll do something multiple times and then never doing it does indeed say something about his character. What it says I guess we'll have to disagree on.

I only mentioned the fact that he was dealing with the situation in the first place knowing all the details, not the fact that you're having issues getting him to follow through. Getting a "hey, my friend bought this het from you that he sold to me that I sold to someone else and it hasn't proved out yet" email would earn an automatic "delete" from most breeders. I hope you guys do reach a resolution on the matter.

Originally Posted by David Bellis

Yes, Cliff was also working out a deal with Brian and I hope this doesn't screw it up for him. The last I spoke to Cliff though he was told he'd get an inventory to pick from that he never saw either. But as I've stated multiple times, if Brian doesn't compensate Cliff **I WILL**.

I hope Cliff gets his resolution to, and I commend you for stepping up to say you would make it right if nothing comes of it. If you mentioned this elsewhere in the thread, I missed it, and i apologize.

Originally Posted by David Bellis

Make mention of it and send the snakes back?? I would start a new thread with a huge apology just for starters. You don't think this crossed my mind at all, that it's been bad odds after bad odds? Of course it has. But after four clutches and 20+ eggs I'm 99.999999999% sure he's not a het. And I think Brian felt the same way which is why he told me for six months that he would do something.

But he didn't.

I'm glad that did cross your mind and you thought it out, as I trule believe most people would just hush up about it and not say anything if it ultimately did prove out. As I said, i wasn't trying to jump on you or neccesarily pick sides, i was just trying to get more information. i hope you and Brian can reach a peaceful resolution in this.

That final statement speaks volumes about you David.. Cliff hasn't been worried one bit, because he knows you are bulletproof... Way to be standup and answer your phone my man!! Also; way to remain professional as all get out!!

you guys really should not complain about this stuff and just learn when you purchase a het even when its said to be 100percent you never can guarentee, I personally wouldnt buy a het ever for breeding not because of trust issues but because ur screwed if something wrong, I wouldnt blame any breeder for someone trying multiple years to produce from a het and get all pissy that it didnt work out. this is just MO

I am curious after reading through this entire thread...I know I personally do but how many breeders who sell hets provide a photo id with genetic guarantee? I am not saying anything about the OP, seller, or new buyer..... but isn't it possible that someone with a lesser rep or even a potential scammer sells a snake that has genetic guarantee paperwork and then turns around and ships out a totally different snake? Maybe this isn't the place to ask this question but after reading the post, I kept wondering where the paperwork that proved the snake was the one in question with a photo ID until I saw Chris' post that the paperwork I expected to see doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by malibumiles

you guys really should not complain about this stuff and just learn when you purchase a het even when its said to be 100percent you never can guarentee, I personally wouldnt buy a het ever for breeding not because of trust issues but because ur screwed if something wrong, I wouldnt blame any breeder for someone trying multiple years to produce from a het and get all pissy that it didnt work out. this is just MO

Yeah, that's a great mentality to have.

No one should guarantee hets. That way, no one is ever disappointed and no one ever has to be labeled as a scammer.

Really?

If I breed an albino boa to a normal boa, biology says the babies will be het. for albino. So ... trust issues aside ...

Hi,

Dare I chime in on this. I can tell you that I have first hand bred various Ghost lines together and FAILED to hatch Ghost. For a fact there are different lines of Ghost that look just like each other and are NOT genetically alligned. As an example of how this works is when I bred both of my lines of Albino Water monitors together and NEVER hatched a single albino. They are from the same general area(in the wild) and look basically identical, what a shock it was with multiple breedings and never hatching a single visual.

I see Mike Wilbanks has Citrus Ghost.... I don't think they are compatible with Green/Orange Ghost. I have had Blonde Ghost not line up with Green/Orange Ghost.

Secondly, I know all about BAD odds... odds way beyond what you are experiencing.... there is still a SIGNIFICANT possibility that you just had bad luck....a VERY good possibility in fact. Statistically speaking 13 eggs is not finite enough to rule out that the Spider Het Ghost was not indeed a Ghost Het.

Finally, I think you may have forced the hand a bit with Brian when you went here without sticking it out just a bit more..... Once this happens he may not feel like he wants to do anything.

What happens if you bred this snake to a visual Green or Orange Ghost and it DID prove out? Who would have suffered then? I really think it would be wise to try this last breeding just to be sure.

It is a tough situation and I totally understand your frustration....

Kevin

Originally Posted by David Bellis

Make mention of it and send the snakes back?? I would start a new thread with a huge apology just for starters. You don't think this crossed my mind at all, that it's been bad odds after bad odds? Of course it has. But after four clutches and 20+ eggs I'm 99.999999999% sure he's not a het. And I think Brian felt the same way which is why he told me for six months that he would do something.

But he didn't.

20 eggs is the total of your sample, and you are "99.999999999%" sure? Well, I bred corn snakes for a long time, and bred a LOT of het to het. 20 eggs would be the equivalent of a single clutch of eggs from a corn, and quite honestly it wouldn't surprise me in the least (and in fact, it HAS happened MANY times) to not get a target visual with ONLY those odds. One in four odds with only 20 chances really means nothing. The reality of statistics in situations like this is that you will get anywhere from NONE to ALL visuals, depending on your luck. Now if you had 100 babies, or if your odds were 50 percent (by breeding het to visual) with 40 babies, then I think your case would be on much more solid footing. Honestly, even then it would not be absolute PROOF, but the ODDS of your being correct would be much more in your favor.

Genetics is based on statistics and influenced HEAVILY by pure luck. At this point, you certainly cannot rule out the possibility that this is all just about a classic case of bad luck. Yeah, unpleasant and a kick in the teeth, but that is the plain reality of playing with genetics and literally counting your chickens before they hatch.

Also, I don't know what the situation is like in ball pythons concerning hypomelanism, but I do know that it is a real nightmare in the corn snake world, concerning incompatible, but identical looking, "hypo" genes. Lord only knows that I have had my share of banging my head on the table over such things.

Anyway, yes, I understand the REASON for this thread here on the BOI is because of Brian failing to address this with you in a timely fashion, which I believe many people will agree with you. My response HERE is focused on the fact that I believe that you just do not have a solid case for what you are claiming concerning the genetics of the animal in question here. THAT, in my opinion, is something that would be premature to use as evidence in the labelling of anyone as being responsible for any wrong-doing at this point.

my opinion is that the breeder should guarantee the genetics of his animal to whom ever owns and trys proving the animal out. you should NOT be compensated for any loss of potential offspring or monies their of.
the genetics are guaranteed which is something that doesnt change regardless of ownership.
an animal of equivalent value should be offered. so either a 2010 honeybee or another adult spider PROVEN het ghost.
4 months is a long time to negotiate a reslolution.
i also agree that 20 eggs from a het to het with unknown lines is not enough evidence to say 100% that this animal is not a het at all.

ill do this for you. ill give you 300 bucks which is the going rate for an adult male spider right now.
and ill try and prove him out.
het to het can go bad for years and years with no result and then one clutch will be all visuals. i think you need to take a little more time with him.
i understand your upset but you shouldnt have sold him before your eggs hatched. then you would have had another year to prove him out.
adam jeffery

Originally Posted by NERD,Inc

Hi,

Dare I chime in on this. I can tell you that I have first hand bred various Ghost lines together and FAILED to hatch Ghost. For a fact there are different lines of Ghost that look just like each other and are NOT genetically alligned. As an example of how this works is when I bred both of my lines of Albino Water monitors together and NEVER hatched a single albino. They are from the same general area(in the wild) and look basically identical, what a shock it was with multiple breedings and never hatching a single visual.

I see Mike Wilbanks has Citrus Ghost.... I don't think they are compatible with Green/Orange Ghost. I have had Blonde Ghost not line up with Green/Orange Ghost.

Secondly, I know all about BAD odds... odds way beyond what you are experiencing.... there is still a SIGNIFICANT possibility that you just had bad luck....a VERY good possibility in fact. Statistically speaking 13 eggs is not finite enough to rule out that the Spider Het Ghost was not indeed a Ghost Het.

Finally, I think you may have forced the hand a bit with Brian when you went here without sticking it out just a bit more..... Once this happens he may not feel like he wants to do anything.

What happens if you bred this snake to a visual Green or Orange Ghost and it DID prove out? Who would have suffered then? I really think it would be wise to try this last breeding just to be sure.

It is a tough situation and I totally understand your frustration....

Kevin

Originally Posted by WebSlave

20 eggs is the total of your sample, and you are "99.999999999%" sure? Well, I bred corn snakes for a long time, and bred a LOT of het to het. 20 eggs would be the equivalent of a single clutch of eggs from a corn, and quite honestly it wouldn't surprise me in the least (and in fact, it HAS happened MANY times) to not get a target visual with ONLY those odds. One in four odds with only 20 chances really means nothing. The reality of statistics in situations like this is that you will get anywhere from NONE to ALL visuals, depending on your luck. Now if you had 100 babies, or if your odds were 50 percent (by breeding het to visual) with 40 babies, then I think your case would be on much more solid footing. Honestly, even then it would not be absolute PROOF, but the ODDS of your being correct would be much more in your favor.

Genetics is based on statistics and influenced HEAVILY by pure luck. At this point, you certainly cannot rule out the possibility that this is all just about a classic case of bad luck. Yeah, unpleasant and a kick in the teeth, but that is the plain reality of playing with genetics and literally counting your chickens before they hatch.

Also, I don't know what the situation is like in ball pythons concerning hypomelanism, but I do know that it is a real nightmare in the corn snake world, concerning incompatible, but identical looking, "hypo" genes. Lord only knows that I have had my share of banging my head on the table over such things.

Anyway, yes, I understand the REASON for this thread here on the BOI is because of Brian failing to address this with you in a timely fashion, which I believe many people will agree with you. My response HERE is focused on the fact that I believe that you just do not have a solid case for what you are claiming concerning the genetics of the animal in question here. THAT, in my opinion, is something that would be premature to use as evidence in the labelling of anyone as being responsible for any wrong-doing at this point.

Both of these Posts are Exactly the point !!!!!!!!!!!
Just like what i said earlier , you breed Het X Het your not guaranteed anything .. and you cant say 100% or 99.9999999 % as you put it ,that the snake is NOT HET .

Before you can make a Bold statement as it NOT BEING HET you need to make sure 1) Compatibility 2) you breed it to a VISUAL of the Morph .

like i said earlier then and only then can you make the claim that its NOT HET .