Salmon X Hogg Island question's

Now, are there hypo hogg's out there that are pure hogg's? Or was the hypo gene bred into them thus producing the sunset's? Im a bit confused by some of your answers.

A popular current theory is that hogs are a naturally occuring super hypo (in that the population is isolated, so there has been no outcrossing to "normals" for several generations). However, the snakes marketed as hypo hogs are hog island x hypo BCI (as stated earlier, the hypo offspring of that pairing is called a Sunset Cross, the non hypo offspring are just mixed locale BCI...but if the hogs are, in fact, hypo or super hypo, one would expect that those wouldn't exist; unless they are different strains of hypomelanism that can be combined)

Originally Posted by JCCS

Bob, I have spoken to you on the phone before and you are a good guy, but sometimes ethics need to come before the market, even though there are Hogs in the wild now, there is no guarantee that they will always be there. Caulker Cays are an example of a locality that has been wiped out since they were imported. Sometimes the good of the locality needs to be put before what sell well and what doesn't. I just think we need to keep designers and localities seperate.

Chris Canada-Smith

And I reckon that is where we differ. These animals are not being planted back into the wild thereby decimating the wild population. These are animals that are remaining in private collector hands. If there was any chance of these hurting the wild populations then I would be the one leading the charge. But, since these will remain in captivity then whose to say where the ethic line is drawn? I do not feel that it is the least bit unethical to cross a hog and a bci just like I do not feel it is wrong to cross a pug with a beagle. It's personal choice and so long as the offspring are solid and viable then go for it. I do not think that ethics is the right word here. Ethics implies either right or wrong and I don't believe either is the case here.

Griz

I think that Chris' point was more along the lines that the wild population is negligible at this point (they were thought to be extinct until not too long ago). As such, if care isn't taken to maintain them in private collections, pure hog island boas could become a rarity even in captivity...a problem exacerbated by those that do not market the "crosses" as what they are.

Chris, all of the hypo/hogs that I am aware of, including the sunstes are crosses. It seems that you are making, atleast in my mind, the right decision. Again, I do not dislike people for crossing localities, I just do not participate in the practice myself and will usually try to persuade others to do the same.

Harald, I did not take it as you were supporting the crosses, I was just saying that in my view, using either sex is just as wrong as the other.

Bob, It is somewhat of an ethical issue, that being said people have different ethical standards. I am not saying that yours are right or wrong. I believe that as long as the animals are being kept in proper conditions, the owner can breed whatever they want to whatever they want, it is a free country. It is just my personal ethics that make me want to keep the Hogs and other localities pure.

Chris Canada-Smith

Bob in reading that, my first sentence where I used "ethical standars" could easily be taken out of context. What I was meaning to say is closer to "ethical point of view". I think that using ethical standards could be viewed as condescending on my part. I do believe it is an ethical issue, but I don't believe someone is unethical just because they cross localities.

Chris

How bad off is the population of Hogg island boa's in the wild? Honestly?

If you breed a hogg to a normal BCI, does half of the clutch come out hypo's? If not, then i wouldnt say that the theory of Hogg's being a form of super hypo is true. Hypo being a co-dom or dom gene, it should pass down to the babies at least half of the clutch. But if that does not occur on an outcross breeding, then its just a normal locale color difference.

This seems to be a 50/50 decision in most peoples minds, where-as its either ok or its not ok. I can see what Bob means when he says he doesnt believe its an "Ethics" issue. It's not like we're discussing abortion *gasp*

This is basically like saying its unethical for a white man to have sex with a black woman and produce mixed children. It's a 50/50 ratio, some will say yes, some will say no. I will do more research before i delve into something like this. I'd like to keep this topic open to more discussion. So we can see the true passion some of you hold in regards to this issue.

The truth is that no one here probably has a good answer on the population question.
Now as for comparing keeping localities pure and mixing races of people, that is two completely seperate subjects. People have the choice whether to mate or not. I am part native american, allbeit a small part. I don't believe that there are too many americansthat were born in America that can claim to be of one pure "locality", atleast they would be in the vast minority. I don't believe that is an ethics issue at all, but some might. There is that different ethics for different people thing creeping out again, lol. Enough of this subject, a bit too touchy for this forum.

Chris

i look at it this way . if i had a pair of hoggs that i could trace the parentage on and be sure they were pure hogg island then i would not want to cross them with anything . if on the other hand i had a hogg island whose parentage was unknown and i couldnt be sure it was pure or not , i'd be less likely to worry about crossing it with something else . the main issue i see is that those who do cross one local with another should sell them as crosses . i think the big ethical issue is less with crossing than it is with the selling of critters as what they are instead of claiming them to be something else .

I don't have a problem with crossing, I have done it myself. But as mark said they need to be sold as what they are. That is what happened to me I thought I purchased a clean pure hogg female, what I bought was a cross a pastel BCIxhogg. (hard to tell for sure when she was 2 weeks old and my lack of experience) I got some really nice looking babies, but the snake was misrepresented because it looked so much like a hogg. I have since purchased a hogg female for my hogg male. Now I'll have both. I was thinking of mixing my male salmon with one of my pastel hoggs, wich I will probably do in a few years. Seems to me people have been doing this with dogs forever. As far as ethics go who's to say your perception of ethics is the same as the guy next door? Just my thoughts. I'm new at the breeding part of the hobby but I've admired these animals since I was a kid. KNOW and TRUST who you buy from if you are looking for pure lines.
Dennis Cook

Originally Posted by JCCS

Bob in reading that, my first sentence where I used "ethical standars" could easily be taken out of context. What I was meaning to say is closer to "ethical point of view". I think that using ethical standards could be viewed as condescending on my part. I do believe it is an ethical issue, but I don't believe someone is unethical just because they cross localities.

Chris

Chris, trust me, I have very thick skin so nothing phazes me. And, I understood how you meant your comment.

When I view this issue I do not see it as an ethical question as there is no moral absolute here. I fully back people like Gus who are creating some of the most beautiful local specific animals that you are likely to ever see. But, I also see absolutely no harm in crossing some of the locals to create even more beautiful animals that are maintained in private collections. It's not a question about ethics rather personal likes/dislikes.

Griz