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Old 05-05-2008, 10:19 PM   #51
Drache613
Hello

Hello,

Well, if you read the report from Jacobson, he specifically states not to breed AD positive dragons, period. So, why do you want to do that to them? We have weakened the genetics of these dragons simply by inbreeding them for whatever particular morph that we please, & THAT is playing with nature & is not fair. It is no wonder they are susceptible to disease & virus.
It is not ethical to knowingly pass on disease. If we were to observe them in the wild they most likely would have very little health problems. Sure, there are always babies born that don't make it due to some type of genetic problem, but definitely not the percentage that we are causing.



Tracie
 
Old 05-05-2008, 10:25 PM   #52
Beardiepal
Tracie- I truly regret that this has gotten this far... I truly am sorry ! I applaud your efforts,,,I just don't agree wholeheartedly. I never citicized until you agreed with my mindset being questioned? There are reasons for 2 opinions Tracie. I really belive this. I learn from you-the teacher-the advocate and here we have allowed this discussion to become very uncomfortable. I failed because I got angry and so did you...B
 
Old 05-06-2008, 11:27 AM   #53
Drache613
Hello

Hello,

Beth, there have been so many discussions that almost mirror this same exact thread. So it is like a broken record, that you play over & over. I as well as others who are advocates for Adeno feel as I do, but do not come on much because of all of the frustrations.
I get frustrated & angry because of the breeders from the past that are still breeding now that have known positives in their colonies but refuse to do anything about it. That is why I get angry because it is not simply my opinion it is the recommendation from Dr. Jacobson as well as Dr. Wentz not to breed positives as it is unethical.
So really the only ones losing right now, are the dragons. Sorry I feel that way but I just do. I am one of the only few that actually have the guts to against the grain & against all of the large breeders that by now hate me. I just honestly don't care anymore.
Cheri S spent years being beaten up & she can't take it anymore & you all ran her off. I am here to continue whatever she did not & could not finish due to her health problems & frustrations.
I am sorry that most of the Adeno threads turn this way, that is just how it ends up going. If you have entered enough of them as I & a few others have, it always turns out practically the same way as this one did, unfortunately. It is a very sore subject with alot of people as there are a handful & probably more that have not had the courage to come forward with their Adeno problems in their colonies. There are so many breeders that had so many die offs due to it. Others have had problems, but did not do testing, but just passed it off to other strange problems. I am sorry but it is the mindset of most of the breeders to simply ignore it & continue on as they are doing & just not even make an effort at all to test. That wont fix the problem, or even help it.
I apologize for being direct, but I cannot begin a society advocating against breeding positives, & then represent myself in any other way & support breeders that wont test. I simply will not & cannot do it.

Tracie
 
Old 05-06-2008, 09:10 PM   #54
Beardiepal
I cannot be responsible for those breeders who are selling adeno positive babies. Because the mom or dad was adeno positive, were the babies??? You have opinions from Jacobsen and Wentz...my vet doesn't believe my beardies are at risk...don't convince me and the ones who love beardies and will swear to be ethical...it sounds as if you need to convince the veterinary world...Tracie,,,climb to the top !!!! Convince vets that it is indeed a beardie killer and you will have your pepsquad, Too many people look at their vets and expect them to do the right thing...perhaps you are bypassing your most important link...B
 
Old 05-06-2008, 09:12 PM   #55
Beardiepal
You have to find the reptile specialists accross the US. Is there a veterinary website that lets you know their specialties? Hell I don't know...there is one for doctors & lawyers.market your opinion, get it out there...so >>>>B
 
Old 05-06-2008, 10:08 PM   #56
Beardiepal
You are not notifying who you should...

Tracie- you need some help???Possibly we could find reptile specialists from a registry or you can ask for members vets who they consider to be reptile specialists...devise/create your letter and an excel spreadsheet so you can keep track 0f those you have contacted...and then you will know who you need to contact in 1-2 months. I am quite serious about this endeavor....you want to be credible...get the vets behind you...then we get a grant or whatever surfaces from your contact with reptile vets...they may just jump on your bandwagon... B
 
Old 05-07-2008, 08:40 AM   #57
Drache613
Hello

Hello Beth,

I am already trying to do so. Dr. Jacobson as well as Dr. Wentz are both reptile specialists, or so they say. Most "reptile" specialists throw their names around because they are supposed to be the leading authority on it. So since I am virtually a no one when it comes to all of this, it is just going to take some time.
I have even thought about going to the CDC to see what type of action could be taken, etc.
I did the first step & that was to get the backing of the U. of Illinois as well as Lou Ann. It's not like that took me a day. I have had that in the works for well over a year.
Dr. Jacobson wont give too many people time of day, either so that is not real encouraging either. Alot of vets wont even return your phone calls, so it is painstakingly slow.
You are right though, most vets do not think it is bad. A major reason is because they don't know anything about it or have never seen a dragon with it. Most dragon owners don't even take their dragon to the vet when it is sick. There are alot of new owners that have their dragon die & never even bother to get a necropsy done. So they just died suddenly with no warning & you have no idea. Then we do have some, which I have been compiling now for awhile, owners that have had heartbreaking instances in which they have done lots for their dragons & they still passed. They go through with a necropsy, etc, only to find that they had enlarged livers, & that they were positive for adeno. That is not normal for a 1 or 2 year old to have an enlarged liver.
So there are some vets that are concerned, just not enough data from people in general & they don't see enough cases to be concerned. Vets that see alot of cases know how bad it is firsthand, but if they had never seen it firsthand they would not have the experience.
I am working on some ideas, but it takes time. As far as the grants go, I doubt I could get one, but maybe a vet could. The vet or the school or institution would have to get approved, not me.
There are a few websites that have listings of reptile vets. I also get names from people of the vets that they have used & if they were good, etc.
I was just hoping for a better initial response from some of the older breeders who have gone through the outbreak in the 1990's & most recently. They of all people should understand how real & how threatening it is. I don't know how many more cases we have to see or go through before people realize that it is a problem & can cause genetic problems for future offspring.
While yours at the moment, may not be at risk for Adeno, whether they are positive or negative we don't know, but if you bring another dragon into your colony from another breeder you could run the risk of infecting your colony without knowing it. You never know how they may react to it. All it takes is for them to get their coccidia levels way up for them to begin stressing & if they are positive they will quickly go downhill alot of times. I want your colony to be healthy & want your offspring to be healthy. I would personally just want to know if they were carriers or not, but, again, that is just me.
Thanks for the ideas & support, it does help & it does make a difference, to me, Beth.


Tracie
 
Old 05-07-2008, 10:08 AM   #58
JimD
Tracie.
How many Dragons are you personally working with to base all your experience on?
Have they all been tested?
Results?

Jim.
 
Old 05-08-2008, 11:35 AM   #59
Drache613
Hello

Hello Jim,

I have quite awhile files from clients that have had their dragons tested. I personally have not kept adeno postive dragons, no. At least not yet.
You know, I am just trying to help & get everyone to help the dragons more, that's all. Reptiles, in general, get the shaft. They have no rights, there are very few vets that will treat them, & just overall they need more people fighting for them, generally speaking.


Tracie
 

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