I use to do a lot of business with Jon. Thousands of dollars every year, there were small problems along the way, very similar to this situation. I once traded him 2 unsexed Cyrtodactylus elok for 1.1 Paroedura stumpfii. That pair ended up being 2 males. I never received a female! He later told me that when he said "pair" that he meant "two" animals.
I continued to do business with Jon even after several small issues, however after a deal that occurred in early 2011 involving the purchase of some LTC Paroedura gracilis, we had a falling out. Here are the emails regarding that deal:
My emails are in Black, Jon's email are in
Red
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Hey Jon,
Have you heard anything from the guy you bought them off? Also who exactly did you buy them off, I didn't catch who exactly you said sold them from our conversation yesterday as I only remember Robert Seipp.
Anyways one of the females dropped her tail last night and I haven't check them since I woke up so hopefully none have died overnight. Anyways I am not happy at all with these animals, and I know you did not produce them, however I feel like you decieved me into buying them.
This is a list of the text messages I recieved in order from first to last (time and date are listed in bold and I underlined the parts that I feel implied that these animals were in good shape/LTC's):
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"Just a quick note- I will have either 3.5 or 4.6 gracilis surplus when I get back. I already got my group and they
look very good"---6:27am 3/12/11
"Won't know for sure until I get the final in the shipping but probably around $300/animal. Give me a heads up if potentially interested."--11:41am 3/12/11
"Also might have a few extra lohatsara, androyensis, and ebenavia"-- 11:48 3/12/11
"I'll have more of a chance to better scrutinize all tommorrow, as I begin to prepack,
but they look great! They are not cb!
But have been captives of a friend for some time. I spent so much on my stuff that I nearly bankrupted on the way out the door?
---12:03 3/12/11
"I'm paying for the gracilis today and there will be a total extra of 4.6 that are available. If you want them let me know asap as another friend wants them if you do not. Total cost/animal after ship to USA between $320-360/animal. Diplo credit and Cyrto credit will apply. I need atleast 1K as a deposit if you want them as I'm paying cash (euro). You can paypal a deposit to my normnal email (today is possible!!!!) and I'll ship with your others after I get back on Wed! You've got a number of critters here---1:43 3/13/11
"PS let me know by text when you paypal so that I know as I'm not staying ontop of emails as there is too much else to do--1:44 3/13/11
"Give me a call this am so we can work out all shipping and animal details. I just got back and the animals should be cleared around midnight tonight and and therefore shipping tommorrow" ----8:52am 3/16/11
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So based on the highlighted comments from your messages, I was assuming these were gracilis that were from your friend and were nice LTC animals (similar in quality to the male you sent me back in the fall). However I think it is very safe to say the animals I recieved were not at all LTC and were frest imports. I am looking at these things and they look like they just were released from auschwitz. There is like one or two that have a little fat in there tail, however I think they are the exceptions and not the rules---as they are not in great shape either. I can literally count the backbone vertebrea in almost every animal. Add this to the heavy die off of the animals and I am positive these animals were not cared for in any approproiate fashion by your friend. Also I don't know why a "friend" would even try and sell you these things, I know if I shipped you a gecko to send over to Hamm that was even close to how bad of shape these geckos are you would tell me "Hey, these look like shit, and I am not dealing with them"--end of story.
I figure you being one of the most experienced gecko keepers out there could see that these animals are first off not LTC animals (I consider LTC atleast 5-6 months, not 2 weeks as I am sure most people do aslo). Secondly you have had to known that they were at very high risk of dying in transit to the US based on their condition I am assuming they were in in Germany. Thirdly why you would spend so much money on animals that are either about to drop dead or walking a thin line. When gracilis were imported to the US they cost I think around $200 for WC, so when I am paying over $300 an animal I am expecting that animal to be in better shape than fresh WC's. I realize gracilis are rare, and not seen frequently, but that does not mean I am going to be reckless when I see some and just throw down big money to get some shit ones, just to say I got some.
I know you mentioned that spending a week in transport can take its toll, which I am sure it does, however an animal that is in good shape should remain in good shape throughout the shipping process. All the other animals I recieved were in good shape, despite the long journey, why should gracilis be any different? They are no more delicate than P. masobe or the other geckos in the box? The only reason they did not fare well is because they had to have been in horrible shape from the get-go.
I am not trying to be a douche about this, however I feel like I was not treated honestly/fairly in this deal, and I was not given an accurate description based on your text messages as to the REAL health of the animals. I understand you have lost animals as well, but I feel like I put my faith in you to get me these animals and believed that you had the judgement to only buy solid animals. You knew the condition of the animals when you bought them from your friend so I don't think its the same for you to complain about them, as opposed to me, where I was painted a false picture of what I was really getting myself into. I know you can say I only have 1K in cash invested in them, and that the animals I sent you payed for the rest, however I think one can try and justify it anyway they want, I see this as I have 3K invested in some dying animals. The geckos I sent you were not free to produce and therefore I do not count them off as not being valuable. I personally would still be quite mad if I only did have the 1K in cash invested in these animals as right now I only have 5 animals (3.2)...whch is still over $200 a piece per animal...and they are all on death's doorstep.
Again I am not trying to attack you persoanlly, as I do value our relationship, however I want to clearly state where I am at in regards to this deal in hopes of eventiually being able to justify this in my head--as right now I am about to lose my mind over this.
Derek
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Hi Derek,
First of all, regardless of your interpretation of my statements that follow let me preface them by saying I was young once and I understand where you’re coming from, so please keep my statements in perspective. I’ve kept geckos longer than you have lived by 10 years. Meaning – I was breeding geckos 10 years before you were a thought in either of your parents mind or nursed from your mother teats. When you question my motives, experience and judgment I find it not only misplaced but no different than my children (who are nearly the same age as you) questioning my experience.
Some facts:
· Sorry, but gracilis are far more sensitive than P. masobe and ANY other wc species. If you do not know this – I will proceed in questioning your experience, intellect and judgment. Gracilis are more rare than other geckos because they’re harder to acclimate and are prone to dying even if looking decent. A current poll on who’s keeping them around the planet should be sufficient proof, even for a moron.
· I do not give out names of customers or suppliers to anyone period (ex. my friend who cared for the Silvio ciliatus) – including you. If you were actually listening to me yesterday on the phone I mentioned being screwed by Seipp more than 10 years ago for PHLLLURUS – which is not the same species as Paroedura gracilis. I was referencing a big financial hit I took with him.
· The geckos looked just fine when I saw them on Saturday and picked them up the following day. Maybe they do not after shipping, but 5-6 days later is not the same as the day that I bought them.
· “Captives for some time” can have various meanings and interpretations. If I was schnookered, and eventually you too, it was what it is – not me “deceiving you into buying them”. Ask yourself what I would gain in doing something stupid like that!?!?!?!
· $200 5 years ago in the USA is a bit different than $325 today being shipped from Germany. They’re more rare and in more demand today than 5 years ago, along with a lot of Malagasy species for obvious reasons.
· You stating I knew they were about to drop over dead, or would not make the journey, but still chose to make the purchase anyway is highly insulting. I chalk it up to your young age and inexperience in properly interfacing with people.
· You make references to how things will fare during international shipments, yet have no experience in doing so whatsoever, other than what your small net experiences are through others who do it for you.
· You sending me Cyrtodactylus that “do cost money to produce” is also insulting. I produce geckos too Derek and have for a few years, and also have an idea of what it “costs to produce one”. OK – how much does it cost to produce a Cyrtodactylus that other people will not buy from you? I can send them all back for credit on things that I would actually prefer more to keep.
· Never state “I do not mean to be a douche, but…” because you’ve already called yourself out on your own behavior before you exhibit it.
· 1K for 5 animals – is not anywhere sufficient any way you slice it. You’re forgetting the cost of shipping of each animal from Hamm, and my shipping to you in TN, plus my work involved.
· Just how many wc gracilis have you seen Derek? How many shipments have you picked through? I’m assuming that you must be mystified into thinking that they should have fat-tails on them like some Eublepharine dream species.
The bottom line is that I have been through what you’re feeling more than a bunch of times Derek and I guess that I might be a bit more seasoned than most in the hobby. But, I think you should strongly consider rethinking your methods in questioning people who have done nothing but help you. You need to keep in mind that I ship, on average, around 175 shipments/year. I have shipped geckos for 30 years. Conservatively, I’ve shipped more than 4000 shipments, hundreds of which were international. I currently have over 2000 geckos from 275 species and have had more than 200 SPECIES for 20 years. I was keeping more than 100 geckos in 1982. Me being one of the “more experienced” gecko keepers around is not very accurate at all. I know of no other humanoid on this planet that has approached anything near what I have done or what I do – and I expect no special recognition for doing it. I am not angry in stating this, as they’re just plain and simple facts. If I drive a silver Honda pilot and state that to someone – that is not me tooting my own horn, rather explaining to someone what I drive – when assuming they apparently cannot figure it out for themselves, so I redirect them to the simple facts.
On my first offers to help you take crested geckos to Hamm – did I charge you? Did I charge you what other people charged you (or what I charge you today?)? Do you think that I’m not aware of this and all of the “why’s”? Have I not offered to help you on every opportunity and even exert flexibility and offer to take replacement animals to Hamm for you for free – when I did not need to? You’ve cost me lots of money prior to today, and you have no idea. Have you wondered why I would help you? Because you were a young kid that needed a break, because I have been there too myself – 30 YEARS AGO! Have you asked yourself, in all honesty, just how experienced are you, how long have you been around to racket up all of your long experience and conclusions, yet still shipped crested geckos to me in wet toilet paper a year or two ago (that’s not very long ago!). And, to only question me by saying “I always ship them that way”. Do you realize that your dead crested geckos earned you a name and reputation that I have tried to defend to people in Germany? Do you know that your dead animals in MY international shipments (twice!!!) that required special permits in Germany (all Rhacodactylus need German customs permits Derek) and only to have the veterinarian inspectors see your dead ciliatus in my box and drag down my name?
I suppose by your own methodology and neural-activity that I too should have told you to kiss my butt when you sent me those “perfect crested geckos” and foreseen that they also were going to die and just told you that you were nothing more than an ignorant wanna-bee and you need to come back and play after you grow up a bit. Using your own judgment methods that you have given me today, tells me that you deserved every bit of the same when you pulled your crested gecko racket on me and your customers – fair is fair, right? I should have been experienced enough to know they also would never make the shipment. Therefore, I see big differences between the two of us. I’ll leave the answer to you.
You’re not trying to attack me? I could have easily done the same with you on previous issues. You have cost me money, money which translates as lost money for a family of myself, a wife and three kids – and the food and shelter necessary to care for them………….as opposed to you who still lives at home, single and no responsibilities. I do not take it lightly when people steal from my family (me personally would be much better for the thief).
I did not even get the money for the shipment to you, Aaron or Andrew.
Wow.
I want you to know that I am not mad at you Derek for what you have said and done here, disappointed - yes. You’re young and I believe you just blew up at me to let some gas off. But, as you paddle through life you’re going to need practice in dealing with issues that are not always just perfect for you (they were not perfect for me either…).
If you expected perfection on an international shipment of Paroedura gracilis that can take a week to get back– it really just shows how inexperienced or unknowledgeable you are in this matter.
Jon
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Hi Jon,
I want to start off by saying I apologize for offending you in the way you seem to have been, based on your email. I wasn't questioning your years of keeping geckos. I think it’s common knowledge in the gecko world as to what kind of "car" you drive, and what you have accomplished over the many years that you have been keeping and breeding geckos. I look up to you and respect you so much for that; it’s hard to convey through email...and that history of respect makes this conversation even harder for me.
I never have considered myself an expert gecko keeper, or boasted about my breedings to anyone. I believe I have been lucky enough to hatch out a various number of gecko species, however I still question, honestly, in my mind if I am actually the one to take credit for it, or if it is all just luck.....I like to think I play at least a small role, as I do work extremely hard with my animals. I try to provide the best care I can, and I try my best to breed geckos utilizing the knowledge I have garnered form experts such as yourself and others. I read extensively and try very hard to reproduce the environmental milieu of their natural habitat.
If someone else is having better success doing something one way, I will look at what they are doing and try to mimic that. Also I think you and I both know I would not have to opportunity to work with the species I am working with if it wasn't for your help in shipping them, which I do greatly appreciate.
As for me costing you money and maligning your reputation in Europe; if you think I owe you money you need to let me know, I do not want handouts or to be a burden on your family's income. I felt that my monetary debt had been fully, and promptly, paid. This is one of the reasons why I wanted to state my feeling regarding the gracilis now. Just so 6 months from now I don't bring up something that you had no idea was a problem. If I do a favor for someone or help someone, I wouldn't hold that against them and use that against them down the road.
In regard to the dead ciliatus 2 years ago. I believe both of us were just as dumbfounded as to what happened. Shit happens; I totally understand that animals are more likely to die during international shipments than just going from my house to your house. The ciliatus cost me money/headache as well.....I replaced or gave out refunds to everyone who was affected by that. That’s more than what I think most Europeans would do if they were in similar circumstances...I think most would say ‘tough luck’. However I want people to be happy with any gecko they receive from me, and if they are not happy I jump through hoops to try and rectify the situation…even if it means money out of my pocket.
Now back to the gracilis. I think the main issue where we are having disagreement is in the wording/description of the animals. I have attached pictures (from last night), of the LTC male gracilis you sent me in September, a LTC male from Matjaz, and then an animal that was in the box 2 days ago. Based on your messages to me, I was thinking that these were personal animals of a friend of yours who had them in his care for at least a few months.
When I helped you ship the rugosus to Matjaz that one time and they were at my house for a few hours (or even if it was a few days/a week), I would not say "I kept rugosus for some time", as I was merely holding them ‘in transit’, until they went elsewhere.
If you will indulge me in considering a hypothetical situation role reversal, where you were in my shoes, you being the one at home, and I was at a show or at an importer in Miami, let’s say buying some Uroplatus for you. Now if I sent you a message saying these 10 fimbiratus "look great" then you paid for them and I shipped them to you, and you received them and half were dead, and the rest of them have tails that are curled into a shape of a pencil, their eyes are sunken, they are lethargic, and underweight, I would think you would call me up and say "Derek...what the hell man".
Now, I will grant you that I don't have any experience shipping internationally; it is something I want to figure out and try doing myself; however it’s tough to figure out exactly what you need in terms of paperwork to make that happen. However, despite my inexperience with shipping internationally, I do have the knowledge of being able to distinguish a healthy animal from an unhealthy animal. I think there is also a genuine difference between say a crested gecko that appeared to be 100% healthy that drops dead during shipping and a gecko that dies during shipping that is underweight and not in good shape. The crested gecko is dead yes, but you can tell it was cared for. However, if the crested gecko died, and you could see its pelvic girdle and spine sticking out and it just didn't look good, then I think you can assume that that animal had pre-existing problems affecting it on top of the shipping factor.
Now I will agree gracilis are not comparable to a crested gecko in terms of their durability, but I do think the masobe is a fair comparison. Go back 5 years, and everything you say now about gracilis was true for masobe. However, now people are more knowledgeable about proper care and they are more readily available. I think gracilis can be just as easy to keep. The 2 males I have now are in excellent shape and give me no problems, and I would say they are not even that delicate. I will agree that fresh WC gracilis are hard in terms of acclimating them, but no harder than Uroplatus or any other WC animal that arrives in rough shape. However, the reason I have a problem is that I was under the impression that these gracilis you got were not fresh WC, and that they were at least similar in quality to the male you sent me in September. However, based on the picture and the animals you have at your house I think it’s safe to say that these animals sold to us were not long term captive animals. If you had told me in the text messages, "They look a little rough", or something similar in meaning than we would not be having this discussion, unfortunately, however, that’s not what happened.
I am really trying to keep this from degenerating into a ‘personal level’ of disagreement, and try to resolve this in a way that neither of us feels slighted by unkind words. I look forward to your reply, and hope that the dealer in this case, can help us both out.
Derek
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Hi Derek,
I’m not sure what’s going on with the gracilis and the credit that should be extended to me, and partly you. I’m out a lot of animals and some money on this deal, and I’m not sure you’re aware of it or not. I’m also not sure you even care. I’ve asked you on more than one occasion to please keep me updated on the progress with the animals you received and how they fare in the end. I know the last time you had written that you were not sure if another one was going to make it or not. In the end, I realized that the guy asked too much for them, and the animals must have been blown full of electrolytes and water to look good and then only to lose it on the long trip back to the USA. I actually now hate this species!!!
Once we get to the bottom of this, I suppose we can figure out what to do with the C. peguensis. At the moment, whether we both like it or not, you actually owe me money (not that I would probably take it from you anyway).
Also, someone told me you sold all of your Uroplatus? Why? Are you reducing your collection and moving another direction?
Jon
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Jon,
You asked me once back in early April on how the animals were doing and I promptly replied that same day....it is I who figured you did not care after that as I never heard a peep from you. I am the one emailing you, so obviously I still care. Out of all the gracilis you sent me I only have 2 pairs that survived and are doing very well right now....believe it or not but they can have quite chunky tails on them when fed. I am sad to hear you do not enjoy them, as I think they right up there with masobe in terms of a cool gecko to keep.
As for me owing you money, I think it shows a lot that you would even bring this up considering the state of the animals you sent me. As I see it, you are the one who would owe me.....considering I only got 2 pairs of gracilis out of an original group of 4.6. Also the animals you sent me were obviously not LTC animals and actually fresh imports, which is not what I was sold and therefore my time in acclimating the animals and the costs I had to pay my vet to run fecal exams I think far outweigh any fine print costs in the shipping you think I owe you.
I just imported 5.5 gracilis (WC) myself last Friday (amongst some other geckos. Including 2.3 WC masobe) from Europe. Every single one of those gracilis is in better shape than the animals I received in March. Even the WC masobe were incredible. Also, I only paid 175 Euro a PAIR for the gracilis!!!
At this point, I am not holding my breath for any credit. I think it’s crazy to think that the dealer you bought them from would even give you any. The animals were bought in person and you accepted them and gave him the money...the deal ended there as far as the dealer was concerned (I can't blame him either). I am just looking at this whole deal as a loss, I guess it was my naive ness to think that you might accept that you made a mistake and offer to make it right.
Derek
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Correspondence pretty much ended after that last email. Nothing further has come from the deal.
Derek Dunlop
Dishonest guy Jon Boone (User name Geitje)
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