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Old 05-10-2004, 08:44 PM   #31
snakekid13
what?!?!?!

i was just asking about what is a good beginner venomous snake when i do become an adult and you made it look like i didnt try to find someone that kept hots i know plenty of people that keep many other snakes which just happen not to be hots. Im not going to go to some strangers house and ask him to train me about them and teach me all the things about them. I personally wish i didnt even start this thread because all it did was cause a bunch of immature adults to have thier little temper tantrums if everyone remembered what it was like to be a kid like snakegetters she actually has respect for me and irwin but all seamus and mustang did was make me have no respect for them at all anyone who can talk to a kid like that is just not right. All i wanted to do was learn a good starter hot for in the future. anyways i've made my point and you can criticize it as much as you but i am no longer taking advice from jerks.
 
Old 05-10-2004, 09:00 PM   #32
Mustangrde1
These " Jerks " as you put it would be the people to help you. Unfortunately your comments have reinforced my arguments as to why minors should not have venomous reptiles as a rule.

Your immature attitude when presented with options and alternative ways to learn while gaining the age and maturity is exactly why I believe most minors should not own them.

Never did I belittle you or condemn you. In fact I presented very viable options that could allow you to become a knowledgeable and safe keeper if that is what your dreams and wishes were.

If you are mad or upset that I pointed out the truths and facts of what can happen when a bite occurs and the punitive possibilites to the person or responcible adult parties then you truly do have much growing up to do. I wish you the best.
 
Old 05-10-2004, 09:15 PM   #33
snakekid13
???

you didnt give us advice and you wouldnt be the person to help me because you stated that " you wouldnt even let a 14 year old near your hots" so technically you wouldnt be the one to help me your the one that criticezes us on our personal opinions.
 
Old 05-10-2004, 09:45 PM   #34
Mustangrde1
Quote:
you didnt give us advice
Please explain to me what this is then.

Quote:
As for not being able to find a trainer. There are many good websites out there that have hot keepers perhaps asking one on those sites for a keeper to train you and hold your animals under their care till you no longer a minor is a good idea. You would still be able to work with them and more importantly learn proper handling skills.
Looks much like advice on #1 where to ask for help! #2 it give you the advice to have a more seasoned/skilled keeper keep them for you so that you can still work with it under proper supervision which #3 would teach you proper handling skills! #4 gives you obviously time to gain the maturity you apparently are lacking.

Next you say
Quote:
" you wouldnt even let a 14 year old near your hots"
Where did I ever say that? I did not nor have I ever said that. MY EXACT WORDS WERE
Quote:
As a Parent I could not condone my child keeping a venomous reptile until I felt they had the maturity both in age and accountability for the aftermath of a bite
To clarify I would let my boy work with me in the hot room without a problem but only I have the key to the room and the cages. Then again my boy has the maturity to ask if he wants to go in there and knows he is welcome to with my supervision or his mothers. He also knows Until he is 18 he will not be allowed first by law and second by us to own a venomous. Although he also has the maturity to not disrespect or try and insult his elders but to listen to their advice and concerns about a situation.

Now try to act mature and not put words in peoples mouths or in this case type and you may find people can give you help. Although my definitive opinion is for certain now that you do not need to be keeping venomous reptiles at this time. However with information and help along with a few more years of maturity mentally you may make a good keeper.
 
Old 05-10-2004, 09:56 PM   #35
snakegetters
Seamus,

I was keeping hots before I was 14. There are a lot of bright and responsible young people whom I'd trust with a hot a lot more than I would trust a lot of adults. Age is not the only predictor of either ability or maturity. I would rather see a bright young 14 year old with a copperhead than a drug abusing, heavy drinking, tattoo covered, wife beating, macho 40 year old with a bigger ego than IQ. A hell of a lot more snake bites are associated with drugs and alcohol than with youth.

Scott,

You have some good points about the legal issues if a minor child is bitten by a venomous snake that his or her guardian permitted that child to keep as a pet. They should be seriously considered by any families who keep venomous.

Snakekid,

It's not cool to call people jerks on this forum. I don't agree with all of Seamus' opinions either, but I can understand why he has them. Scott explained how bad things could happen that would affect all keepers if a minor is bitten and the story hits the press. He's telling the simple truth there. It sucks that it's true, but it is. Whether it's fair or not, minors keeping venomous reptiles do pose a potential legal threat to everyone in the hobby. That's a fact that you will have to deal with and hopefully overcome by demonstrating that you are responsible.

I suggest you refrain from name calling since that just gives people more reason to believe that young people are immature. You can state your opinions and disagree with people without calling names.
 
Old 05-10-2004, 10:07 PM   #36
Seamus Haley
Eric, it's important right now that you distinguish yourself from Kevin (Irwin).

You asked some questions and stated that you had an interest at some point in the future, specifically mentioning that owning a hot would happen when you were an adult AND had the experience needed to do so.

Kevin showed up, claimed to have a copperhead, that it wasn't dangerous in a clinical sense and that he "practiced" for owning a venomous reptile by handling a BURM.

I know that I, and I suspect Scott, think you have the proper attitude and approach. I still wouldn't let you anywhere near my venomous collection without your parents being in the same room the entire time and likely not even then. If you were to be bitten, I would be sued. I think it's important for anyone who's interested in herps to be encouraged but that has a limit. I wouldn't shove you into a pen with an eight foot gator, I wouldn't tell you to feed a croc monitor mice with your fingers and I wouldn't let you within ten feet of a rattler without some glass between you and it.

While venomous snakes and venomous keepers are not HerpGods or some elite group who's better than other keepers... the ones who keep their animals in a way which is safe and legal put a good deal of time and effort into being able to do so. Scott has actually written out an interesting piece (he might be kind enough to add a copy here) explaining how in Florida, someone's first venomous snake costs a year of their life and about ten grand. Or the equivalent in time and effort anyway, because of the way the permit system works down there.

Anyone who does keep venomous animals in a responsible manner has a vested interest in making sure that other people do the same thing. When uppity lawmakers and anti-pet trade activists start introducing stricter laws, the first and most easily targeted group of animals are those which are venemous. Despite the fact that the majority of venomous keepers are some of the most responsible and detail minded individuals to ever own a reptile, the public (who knows nothing about the hobby really) can easily vote to pass a law or elect a legislator that will make permits more and more difficult or even impossible to obtain. The kind of thing which REALLY sets off the anti-reptile crowds are people, especially kids, being hurt. There are hundreds of kids bitten by dogs every day but it generally only makes the news if nothing else happened and never goes beyond a local level. If Kevin were to be bitten by his copperhead (which certainly DOES need medical attention or he's going to end up with the nickname "Lefty") it would have to be reported to the hospital. The hospital is obligated to report significant injuries to the police when a child is involved, they or child protective services would investigate and they would find...

A minor... who watches the Crocodile Hunter... who got bit by his pet snake. It would be on TV and in every newspaper, no question. The result of that... "Won't someone please think of the children?!" and proposed bans on venomous snakes. Bans that would affect every reasonable, responsible individual who owns them.

If it comes right down to it, I don't really care what anyone else decides to do. Until it starts or has the potential to affect ME. I don't want to lose MY animals because HE went and did something ignorant.

Tanith... while I generally am directly opposed to warning labels that demand common sense (Do not use your hair dryer while sleeping), I think this thread shows fairly plainly that people have mistaken your suggestion for using similarly mannered nonvenomous species to learn restraint and handling techniques and taken it to mean "I owned a burm, so I'm ready for a copperhead." If all you *meant* to say was that using a hook on a rat snake will give someone a FEEL for how it's done and greater comfort when they approach a venomous animal, you might want to make that a bit clearer. If you truly think that someone playing around with a pair of tongs and a blood python is ready to own Bitis sp. well... That's a whole seperate discussion.
 
Old 05-10-2004, 10:16 PM   #37
snakekid13
Red face

i would like to apologize to seamus and scott and i realize now after i have written the post that i had made a mistake and i would like to say im sorry since now that i read my post i feel humiliated and like a total dumbass and if you dont forgive me i understand and realize i reacted in being a total jerk and that i hope you guys can understand that the way you worded it made me kind of angry but anyways thats all i wanted to say
 
Old 05-10-2004, 10:26 PM   #38
Mustangrde1
Accepted.

Eric please understand that critisisum is a very important learning tool. And as much one of the most important things is to listen and take what others tell you in and think about it. No good keeper of any living animal is or should be beyound the critisisum of their peirs. It is a healthy and good learning tool to be corrected when you make a mistake. When dealing with hots its better to be told by other keepers then the Doctor. If you have questions ask them and we will all help to the best we can.

Hell Tanith has corrected me as have others its not so much a matter of right or wrong or who's skills are better its about the animals and their best interest. That is what makes you a good keeper the ability to learn without taking things personally and putting the animals before your ego.

So ask away.

Seamus Im to tired to retype that entire thread on "Elite keepers" so here is a link
http://novogate.com/exco/thread.php?...threadid=57922
 
Old 05-10-2004, 10:27 PM   #39
snakegetters
Quote:
Originally posted by Seamus Haley
Tanith... while I generally am directly opposed to warning labels that demand common sense (Do not use your hair dryer while sleeping), I think this thread shows fairly plainly that people have mistaken your suggestion for using similarly mannered nonvenomous species to learn restraint and handling techniques and taken it to mean "I owned a burm, so I'm ready for a copperhead." If all you *meant* to say was that using a hook on a rat snake will give someone a FEEL for how it's done and greater comfort when they approach a venomous animal, you might want to make that a bit clearer. If you truly think that someone playing around with a pair of tongs and a blood python is ready to own Bitis sp. well... That's a whole seperate discussion. [/b]
What I actually said was that years of experience with a wide range of feisty, nasty nonvenomous snakes is excellent training for handling venomous snakes. If a handler is always totally comfortable, calm and unbitten while handling horrible tempered snakes of many different kinds, that's a very good starting point for handling hots.

But you have a good point, so I will consider slapping a standard "disclaimer for dummies" on the article stating that a few weeks of owning a burm does not mean you are qualified to keep cobras. Would you be interested in writing it?
 
Old 05-10-2004, 10:29 PM   #40
Mustangrde1
Eric I see your in TX I know a few keepers there and if you can give me a major city near you i might be able to help put you in touch with a few keepers that can help you.
 

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