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Old 10-07-2004, 02:34 PM   #31
snakegetters
Quote:
Originally posted by Hognose_311
Ok well that wasnt the intention, people come to this forum to talk about thyings and discuss things, not to ask people questions or share what they think and have people try to get them arrested or whtever you people are trying to do...I do not know how to Quote what ppl say.....but i do know that I do not do the surgery, my reptile vet does and he lets me help...i am his relative.
Let's make this perfectly clear. Many of the folks in this forum are *very* happy to call your local authorities and do their best to get you arrested if you brag here about doing illegal things. Some of us have a pretty good track record of making life less pleasant for animal abusers, and we're proud of it. And yes, we will now be focusing those efforts on you because you decided to promote do-it-yourself venomoiding efforts on a responsible venomous keeper's forum. That's kind of like going to an NAACP forum and bragging about attending a KKK meeting. Not too bright.

Whether you're related or not, if you aren't properly certified or employed in the veterinary profession, it's legally and ethically questionable for any veterinarian to allow you to work on animals belonging to other clients. The legal liability problems can be very serious indeed if something goes wrong. Vets know this, which is why we are questioning the truth of your story.

Can you imagine a human doctor who let his cousin into the surgery area and allowed this medically untrained person to assist in surgery, even so much as by handing over one scalpel blade? Do you understand the potential for lawsuits here? Legally it's the same in veterinary medicine. A vet can get into huge amounts of trouble if they do this, so generally they don't.


Quote:
Snakes are the only thing that i like to have as a hobby....and if its just not possible to KEEP the snake with its venom, then you just can't.
Exactly. Leave the venomous snakes in the zoo where they belong. They don't belong with people who need to chop pieces off of them and cripple them because they don't know how to work with venomous snakes safely. For your next purchase, are you planning to buy a lion and cut its hind legs off so it can sit harmlessly in your living room as a decoration? That would be a cool house pet, you betcha.

Quote:
So that is why i have snakes, and i need to have the surgery done BY SOMEONE ELSE, so therefore its not possible to keep its venom glands.
Not "possible"? Who has a gun to your head forcing you to keep venomous snakes? Your selfish desire and your laziness is what the snakes are suffering for. If you are incapable of learning the proper safety skills and acquiring the proper safe housing for keeping dangerous wild animals, don't keep them. Duuh.

You should be really ashamed of yourself. I do hands on work daily with adult king cobras, mambas, kraits, elapids and vipers of all kinds and sizes, and I have absolutely no trouble at all. I am a little old lady (well, middle aged) with thick glasses and bad knees. The skills of safe keeping and handling are professional and easily acquired. If a little old lady can do it so easily, you have absolutely no excuse. You are a sadly deficient individual and you are making animals suffer for your deficiencies.
 
Old 10-07-2004, 02:55 PM   #32
snakegetters
Quote:
Originally posted by Hognose_311
I didnt see it, but, why do it with the risks....? Anyway, why $600? You could pay $100 for a newborn and do the surgery yourself, that's what i do with mine, and none have died...
I should have caught this earlier.

Veterinarians don't do elective surgery on newborn animals. Backyard butchers do.

A few licensed veterinarians do venomoid surgery; I've read papers on the subject by one and heard him lecture on the subject at conferences. One of the things he stated was that the surgery had to be performed on an adult animal, for two reasons. One, a very young animal is at much higher risk. Two, the structures are much smaller and more difficult to properly separate and distinguish in a newborn. So the operation may be a failure either because the animal will not survive surgery, or because it simply won't work. Neonates have a remarkable capacity for regeneration and regrowth.

In short, we have one of two things going on here. Either this is an illegal backyard butcher situation with no vet involved, or there's a vet doing some incredibly stupid things that would expose them to huge legal liabilities. My guess is that the vet is a mythical beastie. Look at the direct quote above that involves words like "do it yourself".

Who's in for helping me with the background research we need to get this one brought up on animal cruelty charges? Where is this pet store?
 
Old 10-07-2004, 03:05 PM   #33
Mustangrde1
Quote:
Ok well that wasnt the intention, people come to this forum to talk about thyings and discuss things,
That is true

Quote:
not to ask people questions or share what they think
Just contridicted your first sentance. We all come here to ask questions and to learn from others experiances and opnions and even critisum is welcomed.

Quote:
have people try to get them arrested or whtever you people are trying to do
We pointed out that Illegal surgery is a crime. We never said we were trying to get you arrested.

However Here is the Legal Surgical guidlines from APHIS

Surgery
AWA regulations require that survival surgeries be performed using aseptic techniques and that major operative procedures on nonrodents be performed only in dedicated surgical facilities. Nonsurvival surgeries require neither aseptic techniques nor dedicated facilities if the subjects are not anesthetized
long enough to show evidence of infection. Research facilities doing surgical demonstrations while traveling must use aseptic techniques and dedicated surgical facilities. Motel meeting rooms and auditoriums do not qualify as dedicated surgical facilities.


Nonsurvival surgeries not performed aseptically or in a dedicated facility must at least be performed in a clean area, free of clutter, and using acceptable veterinary sanitation practices analogous to those used in a standard examination/ treatment room. Personnel present in the area must observe reasonable cleanliness practices for both themselves and the animals. Eating,
drinking, or smoking are not acceptable in surgery areas, and locations used for food handling purposes do not qualify as acceptable areas for performing surgeries.

Quote:
but i do know that I do not do the surgery, my reptile vet does and he lets me help...i am his relative.
And he is violating his sworn oath. Not to mention i seriously doubt if your petshop has the required facilities for Surgery or post operative care as outlines by Aphis

pre-through post-procedural care and relief of pain and distress. The specific details must be approved by the attending veterinarian or his/ her designee. However, the attending veterinarian retains the authority to change post-operative
care as necessary to ensure the comfort of the animal. The
withholding of pain and/ or distress relieving care must be scientifically justified in writing and approved by the IACUC. The appropriate use of drugs to relieve pain and/ or distress must be specified in the animal activity proposal to avoid possible delays due to investigator concerns that a treatment regimen
may interfere with the study. Furthermore, the specified drugs for relief of pain and/ or distress must be readily available for use as described in the proposal.


While an animal is under post-surgical care, the ownership of the animal is not to change. If the animal is taken to an off-site location, such as a farm, for post-operative care, that location should be identified as a site of the research facility. An animal is not to be taken to an off-site location before it fully
recovers from anesthesia unless justified in the animal activity proposal. Appropriate post-operative records must be maintained in accordance with professionally accepted veterinary procedures regardless of the location of the animal.

Quote:
and i don't see why a vet would go to college for x amount of years if he's not willing to do his job
His Job is clearly outlined in the Oath he took and the Ethics of veterinary medical care. Maybe you and he should try reading them both. Also the sergury in question can in no way support a vet full time with any true monetary value equated to it as the proper medical conditions that this surgery done legally would require including Pre-op, Surgery and post operative care.

Quote:
i believe it is wrong also, but why risk your life instead of a snakes if it's your true passion?
You beleive its wrong yet still allow it do be done $@!? NOW THAT IS EGO101.

Quote:
and if its just not possible to KEEP the snake with its venom, then you just can't.
Then in your own words DONT KEEP THEM.

Quote:
So that is why i have snakes, and i need to have the surgery done BY SOMEONE ELSE, so therefore its not possible to keep its venom glands.
Now this one I have got no clue on earth why after your above statements you would contridict yourself again although it is a pattern your showing all to frequently. Your EGO AND VANITY are the reason you want them.
 
Old 10-07-2004, 03:17 PM   #34
Mustangrde1
Just to make it easy for you

Pages 1--6 from Policy #3 Veterinary Care

Policies Veterinary Care Animal Care Resource Guide
Issue Date: January 14, 2000

AC 3.1
Subject: Veterinary Care
Expired Medical Materials
Pharmaceutical-Grade Compounds in Research
Surgery
Pre-and Post-Procedural Care
Program of Veterinary Care
Health Records
Euthanasia


Policy #3

Justification: The Animal Welfare Act (AWA) requires that all regulated animals be provided
adequate veterinary care.


Policy: Expired Medical Materials
The use of expired medical materials such as drugs, fluids, or sutures on
regulated animals is not considered to be acceptable veterinary practice and
does not constitute adequate veterinary care as required by the regulations
promulgated under the Animal Welfare Act. All expired medical materials
found in a licensed or registered facility are to be brought to the attention of
the responsible official. The facility must either dispose of all such materials or
segregate them in an appropriately labeled, physically separate location from
non-expired medical materials. The Animal & Plant Health Inspection Service
(APHIS) has no jurisdiction over facilities using expired medical materials for
non-regulated animals or non-regulated activities.


For acute terminal procedures, APHIS does not oppose the use of expired
medical materials if their use does not adversely affect the animal's well-being
or compromise the validity of the scientific study. Proper anesthesia, analgesia,
and euthanasia are required for all such procedures. Drugs administered to
relieve pain or distress and emergency drugs must not be used beyond their 1
1 Page 2 3
Animal Care Resource Guide Policies
Veterinary Care


AC 3.2
expiration date. Facilities allowing the use of expired medical materials in
acute terminal procedures should have a policy covering the use of such
materials and/ or require investigators to describe in their animal activity
proposals the intended use of expired materials. The attending veterinarian and
the Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee (IACUC) are responsible for
ensuring that proposed animal activities avoid or minimize discomfort, distress,
and pain to the animal. These responsibilities cannot be met unless the
veterinarian and the IACUC maintain control over the use of expired medical
materials.


Pharmaceutical-Grade Compounds in Research
Investigators are expected to use pharmaceutical-grade medications whenever
they are available, even in acute procedures. Non-pharmaceutical-grade
chemical compounds should only be used in regulated animals after specific
review and approval by the IACUC for reasons such as scientific necessity or
non-availability of an acceptable veterinary or human pharmaceutical-grade
product. Cost savings alone are not an adequate justification for using non-pharmaceutical-
grade compounds in regulated animals.


Surgery
AWA regulations require that survival surgeries be performed using aseptic
techniques and that major operative procedures on nonrodents be performed
only in dedicated surgical facilities. Nonsurvival surgeries require neither
aseptic techniques nor dedicated facilities if the subjects are not anesthetized
long enough to show evidence of infection. Research facilities doing surgical
demonstrations while traveling must use aseptic techniques and dedicated
surgical facilities. Motel meeting rooms and auditoriums do not qualify as
dedicated surgical facilities.


Nonsurvival surgeries not performed aseptically or in a dedicated facility must
at least be performed in a clean area, free of clutter, and using acceptable
veterinary sanitation practices analogous to those used in a standard
examination/ treatment room. Personnel present in the area must observe
reasonable cleanliness practices for both themselves and the animals. Eating,
drinking, or smoking are not acceptable in surgery areas, and locations used for
food handling purposes do not qualify as acceptable areas for performing
surgeries.


Pre-and Post-Procedural Care
All animal activity proposals involving surgery must provide specific details of 2
2 Page 3 4
Policies
Veterinary Care
Animal Care Resource Guide
Issue Date: January 14, 2000


AC 3.3
pre-through post-procedural care and relief of pain and distress. The specific
details must be approved by the attending veterinarian or his/ her designee.
However, the attending veterinarian retains the authority to change post-operative
care as necessary to ensure the comfort of the animal. The
withholding of pain and/ or distress relieving care must be scientifically justified
in writing and approved by the IACUC. The appropriate use of drugs to
relieve pain and/ or distress must be specified in the animal activity proposal to
avoid possible delays due to investigator concerns that a treatment regimen
may interfere with the study. Furthermore, the specified drugs for relief of pain
and/ or distress must be readily available for use as described in the proposal.


While an animal is under post-surgical care, the ownership of the animal is not
to change. If the animal is taken to an off-site location, such as a farm, for
post-operative care, that location should be identified as a site of the research
facility. An animal is not to be taken to an off-site location before it fully
recovers from anesthesia unless justified in the animal activity proposal.
Appropriate post-operative records must be maintained in accordance with
professionally accepted veterinary procedures regardless of the location of the
animal.


Program of Veterinary Care
Facilities which do not have a full-time attending veterinarian must have a
written Program of Veterinary Care (PVC). This Program must consist of a
properly completed APHIS Form 7002 or an equivalent format providing all of
the information required by the APHIS form. The attending veterinarian must
visit the facility on a regular basis, i. e., often enough to provide adequate
oversight of the facility's care and use of animals but no less than annually.
Records of visits by the attending veterinarian must be kept to include dates of
the visits and comments or recommendations of the attending veterinarian or
other veterinarians.


The PVC must be reviewed and updated whenever necessary (e. g., as a new
species of animal or a new attending veterinarian is obtained, or the preventive
medical program changes). It must be initialed and dated by both the attending
veterinarian and the facility representative whenever it is changed or reviewed
without change. The preventive medical program described in the PVC is
expected to be in accordance with common good veterinary practices (e. g.,
appropriate vaccinations, diagnostic testing). It should include zoonotic
disease prevention measures and, if necessary, special dietary prescriptions.


Health Records 3
3 Page 4 5
Animal Care Resource Guide Policies
Veterinary Care


AC 3.4
Health records are meant to convey necessary information to all people
involved in an animal's care. Every facility is expected to have a system of
health records sufficiently comprehensive to demonstrate the delivery of
adequate health care. For those facilities that employ one or more full-time
veterinarians, it is expected there will be an established health records system
consistent with professional standards that meets and probably exceeds, the
minimum requirements set forth in this policy. For facilities that do not employ
a full-time veterinarian, it is suggested the health records system be explained
as part of the written PVC, to ensure involvement of the attending veterinarian
in developing the system. For all facilities, health records must be current,
legible, and include, at a minimum, the following information:


! Identity of the animal.
! Descriptions of any illness, injury, distress, and/ or behavioral
abnormalities and the resolution of any noted problem.
! Dates, details, and results (if appropriate) of all medically-related
observations, examinations, tests, and other such
procedures.
! Dates and other details of all treatments, including the name,
dose, route, frequency, and duration of treatment with drugs or
other medications. ( A "check-off" system to record when
treatment is given each day may be beneficial.)
! Treatment plans should include a diagnosis and prognosis, when
appropriate. They must also detail the type, frequency, and
duration of any treatment and the criteria and/ or schedule for
re-evaluation( s) by the attending veterinarian. In addition, it
must include the attending veterinarian's recommendation
concerning activity level or restrictions of the animal.


Examples of procedures which should be adequately documented in health
records include, but are not limited to, vaccinations, fecal examinations,
radiographs, surgeries, and necropsies. Routine husbandry and preventive
medical procedures (e. g., vaccinations and dewormings) performed on a group
of animals may be recorded on herd-health-type records. However, individual
treatment of an animal must be on an entry specific to that animal. As long as
all required information is readily available, records may be kept in any format
convenient to the licensee/ registrant (e. g., on cage cards for rodents).


Health records may be held by the licensee/ registrant (including, but not limited
to, the investigators at research facilities) or the attending veterinarian or
divided between both (if appropriately cross-referenced), but it is the
responsibility of the licensee/ registrant to ensure that all components of the 4
4 Page 5 6
Policies
Veterinary Care
Animal Care Resource Guide
Issue Date: January 14, 2000


AC 3.5
records are readily available and that the record as a whole meets the
requirements listed above.


An animal's health records must be held for at least 1 year after its disposition
or death. (Note: Some records may need to be held longer to comply with
other applicable laws or policies.) When an animal is transferred to another
party or location, a copy of the animal's health record must be transferred with
the animal. The transferred record should contain the animal's individual
medical history, information on any chronic or ongoing health problems, and
information on the most current preventive medical procedures (for example,
the most recent vaccinations and dewormings). For traveling exhibitors,
information on any chronic or ongoing health problems and information on the
most current preventive medical procedures must accompany any traveling
animals, but the individual medical history records may be maintained at the
home site.


Euthanasia
The method of euthanasia must be consistent with the current Report of the
AVMA Panel on Euthanasia. Gunshot is not an acceptable method of routine
euthanasia for any animal. Gunshot as a routine method of euthanasia not only
endangers surrounding animals, buildings, and personnel, but it is likely to
cause distress to other animals. It should only be used in situations where
other forms of acceptable euthanasia cannot be used (such as emergency or
field conditions where the animal cannot be appropriately restrained) or in
cases where gunshot will reduce danger to other animals or humans. Only
personnel skilled in the use of firearms, using appropriate firearms, and familiar
with the "kill point" of an animal should perform the euthanasia. If the firearm
is not aimed so that the projectile enters the brain and causes rapid
unconsciousness and subsequent death without evidence of pain or distress,
this method does not meet the definition of euthanasia. (All State and local
laws relevant to gunshot must also be met.) 5

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ac/policy/policy3.pdf
 
Old 10-07-2004, 03:58 PM   #35
psilocybe
Michael, would you care to provide us with scanned documentation that the venomoid surgeries performed on your animals were done by a licensed veterinarian? Can you provide a contact phone number for your vet? I'm sure you can if he's your relative as you claim. As Tanith mentioned, I find it VERY hard to believe any vet worth his credentials would perform this surgery on neonate snakes. Those are backyard butcher tactics. Care to backpeddle somemore? If you aren't willing to provide documentation on your story, I'm sure a few concerned members of this forum board might be looking into contacting the proper authorities in your area to inform them of your potential illegal activities, i.e. cruelty to animals. We anti-venomoiders always jump at the chance to get a butcher in contact with the long arm of Johnny Law. We have all of your ridiculous posts preserved here on Fauna if the need comes to draw on them. Anyone can see they are full of contradictions and back-peddling, which makes your story VERY suspicious...

I'm guessing providing proof that you are legally having these surgeries done is the only way you are going to close this can of worms you opened...
 
Old 10-07-2004, 04:02 PM   #36
psilocybe
Oh and Michael, on your sig you state you have a mangrove and a copperhead, yet you stated on a post that you have no functionally venomous snakes...

Does this (and I'm holding my breath here) mean that you have a VENOMOID MANGROVE SNAKE??????????? If that's the case, you have reached a new low in venomoiders, I can't even recall the last time I saw or heard of a venomoid copperhead, much less a mangrove! You my friend, are simply pathetic.
 
Old 10-07-2004, 04:20 PM   #37
robin d.
Quote:
Who's in for helping me with the background research we need to get this one brought up on animal cruelty charges? Where is this pet store?
where is ritchie "the ferret" luna when we need him.
 
Old 10-07-2004, 04:40 PM   #38
Mustangrde1
I just saw something else.

Mike You posted a picture of Gregg M's Gaboon viper in the pic forum which i do beleive he has the copyright on. Gregg is a friend and that picture is his without doubt and without his permission to post it you would be violating copyright laws.
 
Old 10-07-2004, 04:49 PM   #39
robin d.
i thought someone said he was from oregon so i did a search there this is the link to that

http://www.whitepages.com/search/Fin...p=&state_id=OR

but i see how he is from virginia

http://www.whitepages.com/search/Fin...p=&state_id=VA

his birthday is
June 12, 1989

making him 15 (illegal)


i find this funny, as he is only a freshman in highschool at best

from his profile:
I Reasearch and breed Snakes for a living.

since he is only 15 im sure those searches are no good but it may be his mom and pop or it could be nothing. wish we had an IP on him might make it easier to pinpoint
 
Old 10-07-2004, 04:51 PM   #40
Rockford
Hey folks.....Instead of burning this kid. Why not try and help him understand his wrongdoings? Check his profile. He is only 15 years old. I had more common sense at his age, but come on. Hopefully we as responsible herpers help this kid understand without all the threats, name calling, etc. It's alot easier on someone without the knowledge to listen to folks who are not threatening and insulting. Hopefully he will listen!!!

Thanks-

BThacker
 

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