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View Poll Results: Would you use this hypothetical stuff?
Yes 15 26.79%
No 37 66.07%
Not sure or maybe, explain below. 4 7.14%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-08-2005, 07:42 AM   #31
crotalusadamanteus
This is actually getting somewhere.

I've only ever found one site (unfortunately, I've lost it ) that shows any "definative proof", that venomous snakes "need" that venom. Speaking primarily of Hemotoxic venoms here. It has been shown that some of your highly Neurotoxic venoms contain little or no evidence of the phospholipase A2 enzymes (pla2). I have however, found more sites to support this belief, than sites that discount it.

Was talking with Brian Smith over the weekend just past, (trying to find that lost article ) and he is co-authoring an article on this very same subject. It will be out soon, and I'm sure He will let it be known on the forums when it is finalized.

Here is My theory on this subject..........
Ever since time the animal world has "evolved" to adapt for specific needs. Fish grew lungs, snakes lost their legs, chameleons are able to camoflauge, some venoms travel faster than your blood does,(via nerve cells) Etc, Etc, Etc.
I believe the PLA2 enzyme (the main part of this necrosis) is part of this evolution. Evolved to help "aid" in digestion (for whatever reasons). Knowing that most evolution occurs do to "necessity" for survival, I would tend to believe that it is a necessity. I don't believe the animal world evolves for NO reason. Nature is just that way.

But as suggested, it would take many long term studies to prove this. Like two litter mates, one voided, and one natural, and study them intently in order to prove this. I believe the voided one will not live as long a life, nor reach it's maximum potential size, maybe even some health problems depending on idividual species.

There are many things that support that other side also. Most of that so called proof has involved snakes that are primarily neurotoxic. IMO the ones who carry primarily neuro's never had a need to evolve those necrotic properties in their venom. Else they would adapt, or evolve, to overcome the problem.

But hey, I COULD be wrong. I'm no doctor. Not a scientist either. I'm just a dumb OPHIOPHILIAC who has been interested in venom, and venomous things for a long time. I've read as much as I could about them.
But someone would have to "prove" me wrong, and by so doing, will answer all of our questions. LOL


Micro chipping..........No harm done. My albino has one. had it for 4 years. I paid alot for her in 99, and thought it worth the extra $120. She never did show any ill effects. My last two Pitts had them also, and me Mastino that my X managed to steal in the divorce.

hhmoore,
Great post's. Spoken with intelligence, and some unfortunate experience. I enjoyed reading those.

Ciao,
Rick
 
Old 09-08-2005, 08:58 AM   #32
hhmoore
Quote:
Originally Posted by crotalusadamanteus
hhmoore,
Great post's. Spoken with intelligence, and some unfortunate experience. I enjoyed reading those.
Ciao,
Rick
Thanks, it's been awhile since I actually seriously got into that discussion. But once the button was pushed it started coming back to me. Where's Gregg when we need him? (I think I'll drop him a line, invite him to the party)
 
Old 09-08-2005, 10:43 AM   #33
Dennis1
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhmoore
I never said inbreeding only affected color. what I said was that the negative effects in morphs are (for the most part) the ones that are caused by inbreeding. breeding within that close a gene pool, in order to reproduce a color or pattern, results in problems...results in weaker animals with genetic defects. Perhaps I should have spelled it out more clearly in my previous post. my comment on the low survival rate in the wild was more of a side note, I apologize for the confusion it caused.
I was just trying to make the similarities


Quote:
Originally Posted by hhmoore
then don't have your animals chipped. simple enough. but look at it this way - maybe it isn't "money driven"...maybe it is following the money. with the prevalence of animal theft, and microchipping being proof positive that the animal belongs to you - if you've got a snake that is worth several thousand dollars or more, don't you think it would be worth it to be able to verify ownership.
I wont do it and i wouldnt mind if others do


Quote:
Originally Posted by hhmoore
regardless of what you believe, the veterinarians that perform this surgery are few and far between. The first person I knew that did this was not a vet, and he performed the procedure in his home. keep in mind this was about 15 years ago. I have since encountered one other person that I know performed the procedure in his basement, and a person that claimed he devenomized snakes himself. I don't know for certain if it was true, but it was a statement that he made TO ME when I asked who devenomized a snake he was offering for sale locally (knowing what I know about this person, and the number of 'voids he offered, I was willing to believe).
I cant argue with your logic
If someone is doing this in their garage or basment or just unsanitary conditions then they are wrong if its a trained professonal in sanitary conditions then who knows

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhmoore
As for taking your pet to bubba's garage for surgery, most people that have 'voids buy them that way. WHY? because they don't have the skills to care for an intact hot, even for as long as it would take to get it to a vet for surgery...not that most people could find a vet in their area to perform the surgery anyway. that point made, I commend them for recognizing this; as the last thing this hobby needs is even more negative press, and stupid people being bitten by snakes they shouldn't have...that is how all the legislation starts.
I was thinking about getting an albino monocled and if i were to get it devenomized (Not saying i will...lol)then i wouldn't be because of lacking skill it would be an extra precaution for those unforeseen circumstances
When they breed what happens to the babies?


I hope I'm not going to be misunderstood in this matter
I just want to make it clear that i am not a Genius ..lol and never had a venomoid, I am still undecided as no one gave me proof that it is detrimental to the snakes health and if someone gave me definite proof i would then be decided against it!
 
Old 09-08-2005, 01:42 PM   #34
hhmoore
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis1
When they breed what happens to the babies?

I hope I'm not going to be misunderstood in this matter
I just want to make it clear that i am not a Genius ..lol and never had a venomoid, I am still undecided as no one gave me proof that it is detrimental to the snakes health and if someone gave me definite proof i would then be decided against it!
I'm not misunderstanding, but I obviously don't have the "proof" you seek. Admittedly, I have been out of the venomous sector for some time now, and haven't kept up with the research and who's doing what...but my feelings on the subject are obviously unchanged. You are obviously free to do what you like. If you opt for a 'void, do some research on the seller...particularly who does the surgery. Get paperwork signed by the vet that performed the procedure (that clearly states they performed the procedure...not just that the snake is devenomized), but treat it as if it was hot anyway. Keep it well, and keep it safely. Don't let either of you become statistics.

As for what happens to the babies - you either keep them and raise them, or you sell them. Seriously, If you are asking what I think you are asking , the babies WILL be venomous...the change to the animals is physical, not genetic, so their offspring will be intact (think of dogs with cropped ears...the babies come out with big floppies)
 
Old 09-08-2005, 07:05 PM   #35
Dennis1
Still Undecided

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhmoore
I'm not misunderstanding, but I obviously don't have the "proof" you seek. Admittedly, I have been out of the venomous sector for some time now, and haven't kept up with the research and who's doing what...but my feelings on the subject are obviously unchanged. You are obviously free to do what you like. If you opt for a 'void, do some research on the seller...particularly who does the surgery. Get paperwork signed by the vet that performed the procedure (that clearly states they performed the procedure...not just that the snake is devenomized), but treat it as if it was hot anyway. Keep it well, and keep it safely. Don't let either of you become statistics.
I dont want one untill they get that hypothetical medicine...lol
But that doesnt make me against them

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhmoore
As for what happens to the babies - you either keep them and raise them, or you sell them. Seriously, If you are asking what I think you are asking , the babies WILL be venomous...the change to the animals is physical, not genetic, so their offspring will be intact (think of dogs with cropped ears...the babies come out with big floppies)
LOL... that was real funny^^^
If the venomoids have babies it would make sense to go look for a vet to perform the surgery if they dont have the "skills" necessary to handle hots?
 
Old 09-08-2005, 09:17 PM   #36
cthulhu77
No, no, and NO again !!! It seems horribly irresponsible to me to have animals that have to be surgically altered, just to maintain them.
Perhaps we should draw out the teeth of Lions in the zoo ??? Cut off the arms of the Orang-Utans ? Ridiculous.
When you learn how to handle a venomous snake, it is no longer a danger...just don't slip up. (or down, as the case may be.)

greg
 
Old 09-10-2005, 11:59 AM   #37
Gregg M
Hello everyone....

To answer the original question, I ofcorse have to say NO!!! For me, there is nothing to ponder..... When I got into keeping hots, I never even thought about ever altering them to make them "safe"..... The way to keep them safely is to aquire knowledge and experiance in safe handling and housing..... No need to rip into an animals head if you follow proper protocol..... Apparently, people who are into voids are too lazy and are lacking the knowledge and experiance to keep these animals safely.... I have been keeping venomous species for 12 years and have not been bitten.... I dont plan on getting bitten but I plan for it...... Meaning I have the proper protocol and AV on hand just incase.....

I do not believe in that old saying "its not if you get tagged, its when you get tagged".... I happen to believe if you are careful enough and experianced enough you can keep these creatures relatively safely.....

On to few thing I read in the thread.....

First thing I want to touch on is the de-scenting thing..... I will not keep ferrets because I think they stink..... If you cant deal with them the way they are, you should not keep them.....

I would never de-claw a cat or crop a dogs ears.... I have a cat and she is full of claws.... If I was not able to deal with her clawing the sofa, I would have never gotten her....

So what I am saying is, if you cant keep a fully intact venomous species, you should stick to the naturally non-venomous species.....

I am not too sure what micro chipping or morphs have to do with this thread..... But here are my thoughts....

Microchipping is fine with me..... Nothing wrong with protecting you investments.....

Morphs are a part of nature.... Like it or not, there is a fair amount of inbreeding in wild populations.... Especially isolated ones..... There are even such things as locality spacific recessive morphs..... This is where a recessive gene becomes the dominant morph in a spacific local..... Inbreeding is tabboo in human populations..... Nature does not follow our religions or go by our ethics.... Venomous snakes do not have their venom glands ripped out of their head in nature.... The few venomous snakes that might be born without the proper delivery system will die from starvation.....

It has also been proven that venomous snakes need their venom to properly digest their food to a certain extent.... It is not need to digest the food, but it is need to advance the process especially in vipers.... Ever wonder why some venomous snakes venom is so necrotic??? If you are bitten by a gaboon or puff, you will lose a massive amout of tissue in a very short period of time....

Take gaboons for example.... They have very slow motabolisms and live in cool, humid jungles.... In the wild, I am certain that their venom plays a big roll in their digestion.... Sure, you can void one and turn up the heat in its enclosure, but you will be doing damage to the animal in two ways.... First you are cutting its head open to take out the glands.... Second you are seriously stressing the snake out by turning up the heat.... They evolved to live and thrive in a certain temp range (high 70s low 80s) and you would be taking that from them as well.... That in itself is enough to shorten their life span considerably..... So is heating up the voided snake the answer or is not voiding them in the first place the answer???? I will go with not voiding them....

You can see what type of people are into voids just by looking on this BOI....

Uneducated
Ignorant
Inexperianced
Untrustworthy
And a few other choice words that I cant say here....LOL

There are only about two or three vets around that I know of that will do a void job.....

90% of what you see for sale on the classifieds are done by inexperiance, unlicensed individuals that could care less about the animals.... They just want the cash.... It does not matter to them how many snakes the kill in order to get one void to live.....
 
Old 09-10-2005, 01:49 PM   #38
Jim O
Gregg,

Once again you did an excellent job of posting your opinion which is consistent with my thoughts and feelings as well.

A few questions come to mind and by no means am I trying to dispute what you said, but more to provide food for thought.

To sum up, you say you are opposed to altering animals to suit a keeper's needs. Is your cat spayed/neutered? Are you opposed to such procedures? The real reason most keepers neuter male cats is not so they will not reproduce, at least not indoor cats, but rather so they will not pick up the annoying habit of spraying the house. Similarly, most keepers of indoor cats do not want their kitties going into heat and crying out all night looking for a male. Now I know there are some potential health benefits to such procedures, but for that argument to hold, we should all get "neutered" after having any children that we want to have so as to avoid prostate enlargement and cancer, and reduce our risk of coronary disease. Any takers? Similarly, maybe we should have out wives and girlfriends "spayed" to prevent ovarian and uterine cancer, and to reduce the risks of breast cancer. Given a choice between my salivary glands and my gonads, I know which I'd choose to keep.

All that said, I am opposed to creating venomoids for most of the same reasons that you are. The procedures are generally performed by unqualified individuals and have terrible results. And keeping a venomoid is like keeping a gun that is unloaded...or so you think it is. I don't *play* with unloaded guns, and I don't *play* with venomous animals.

My other questions concern Helodermatidae. These are the only venomous animals that I keep, and they would never be voided, but the best science that I have read is that their venom is only used for defensive purposes. So the biological need is not there in captivity. They are easy to handle safely with proper precautions and so if someone wanted to risk putting a $1000 animal through unnecessary surgery, crazy as it might be, it likely would have no adverse biological effect. I would never expose an animal to that risk. Nor would I want my animals disfigured just for that purpose.

My main objections to removing the venom system in any reptile is the same as yours. If you are not qualified to handle a "hot" animal then there are other choices. If zoos kept a few voids around for teaching purposes (that is to teach safe handling of venomous animals to prospective owners) I could see that as a legitimate use of such animals. Of course that assumes that they acquired the animals as rescues and did not create them solely for that purpose. In order to get a CWP in Virginia one has to take a handgun safety course. We were "taught" with unloaded weapons until we went into the firing range. My pistol, however, is always loaded except when I have just been shooting (at the range) or when I am cleaning it.
 
Old 09-10-2005, 02:44 PM   #39
Gregg M
Jim I wish I had the answer for everything but I am only human....LOL I will try to answer your questions the best I can....

My cat is fixed or broken.... How ever you want to look at it.... She was fixed before I got her but I do believe in that particular operation....

1) it is alway done by a licensed vet....
2) it keeps a bunch of kittens or puppies from being born that can not get homes and are either let loose on the streets or killed because there is no more room at the shelters....
3) it does lengthen the animals life span and cats and dogs that are fixed are healthier....

As far as Heloderms go, they are not my forte but I do know a little about them and have read that their venom is used primarily for defence.... No matter what the venom is used for, I cant see cutting one open to lower the risk factor..... You lower the risk factor considerably by getting proper training, knowledge, and experience.... I would still be opposed to the operation even if they do not use venom for digestion..... Just think how funny a gila would look without is venom glands....LOL Look at what venomoid gaboons look like.... It kind of reminds me of a deflated balloon....

Like you Jim, my 9mm is always loaded.... The only time it cant be loaded is on the way to and from the range.... I don't have a carriers permit....LOL Which is a good thing because there are a lot of a-holes on the road where I live....LOL

My snakes however, are loaded 24/7 and I would not have it any other way....
 
Old 09-10-2005, 09:25 PM   #40
Dennis1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg M
I am not too sure what micro chipping or morphs have to do with this thread.....
I brought that up because they are both surgeries(microchipping & devenom..)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg M
Morphs are a part of nature.... Like it or not, there is a fair amount of inbreeding in wild populations.... Especially isolated ones..... There are even such things as locality spacific recessive morphs..... This is where a recessive gene becomes the dominant morph in a spacific local..... Inbreeding is tabboo in human populations..... Nature does not follow our religions or go by our ethics.... Venomous snakes do not have their venom glands ripped out of their head in nature.... The few venomous snakes that might be born without the proper delivery system will die from starvation.....
Tell me where to find an Albino or Pied population I'll be on the next plane...lol
Seriously though im sure there is inbreeding in nature somewhere but We can probably contribute that to man or major catastrophy


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg M
It has also been proven that venomous snakes need their venom to properly digest their food to a certain extent.... It is not need to digest the food, but it is need to advance the process especially in vipers.... Ever wonder why some venomous snakes venom is so necrotic??? If you are bitten by a gaboon or puff, you will lose a massive amout of tissue in a very short period of time....
I am not saying you are wrong but where can i find the proof?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg M
You can see what type of people are into voids just by looking on this BOI....

Uneducated
Ignorant
Inexperianced
Untrustworthy
And a few other choice words that I cant say here....LOL
Im not sure if this is directed at me? But if it is i would like to keep this civil
I came here looking for information but have yet to find it
 

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