Avoid Steven Patterson (Apex Reptile Center) at all costs!

I posted the screen shot of the male I bought. That screen shot was of the male with floppy tail syndrome

Originally Posted by AphroditeGeckos

I posted the screen shot of the male I bought. That screen shot was of the male with floppy tail syndrome

So you are now an expert on crested geckos? You can tell from a picture that gecko has FTS?
Oh, wait! Your "friend" is an expert, who has yet to chime in.
Facebook is not a reliable source and I do not consider screenshots as proof.

Originally Posted by AphroditeGeckos

Snake-Queen what on earth are you talking about? That picture of the harley male is not who i bought, you just made yourself look so ignorant right now.

Ignorant, maybe of crested geckos ... but smart enough to know that if I have geckos in my possession, that I am going to get them settled in as soon as possible & not drive around with them for hours.

Any argument about shipping is null, these were not shipped. Picking them up in person is usually ideal, as the buyer can inspect them before taking final possession of them. The OP chose not to do so, instead, she put them in the back seat of a vehicle, in the winter time & ran errands. When returning home, instead of finally inspecting them, they are left on her bed while she ate dinner.

Where is this ad, that states it is an extreme? You have plenty of screenshots of ads that do not pertain to your sale.


You claim the seller doesn't care about his animals, yet it took you over 2 hours to settle in your new geckos.

Originally Posted by AphroditeGeckos

I don't even care anymore.

Originally Posted by AphroditeGeckos

Like I said in my last post, no need to respond anymore. This is over and done with, if I could delete it I would.

Yet, you continue responding ...

ya ya ya. I've read that over and over at this point ya'll are just boring me.

Originally Posted by AphroditeGeckos

Snake-Queen what on earth are you talking about? That picture of the harley male is not who i bought.

Even to my untrained eye, they don't look remotely alike. You did label the picture as "FTS gecko."

Originally Posted by Snake-Queen

You no longer have any credibility with me.

Is it a hit to one's credibility, being more interested in making a point that has no factual basis than they are in putting forth the effort to actually understand a given situation? If not, I'm thinking it should be..

Originally Posted by ElexisOrtiz

It's funny how everyone is attacking this girl.

Yeah, I think this one got away from some of us. Some people will just do anything to avoid admitting that they were in the wrong.

What I think is funny, is that no one seems interested in the fact that it apparently took a BOI thread for the seller to even tacitly concede the possibility that the fault could have been on his end. OP seems to have done all she could to prove her case. Seller shows up with little more than platitudes about how he's not in it for the money; never had a bad transaction; etc. Yet he's the one that seems to come out of this smelling like a rose.

The kinked gecko spent two days - presumably in its own furnished enclosure - between when he supplied the last pictures and when he delievered; she had it in a deli cup - possibly furnished with a paper towel - for roughly 3 hours after picking it up. Certainly seems as if there's at least a pretty decent likelihood that the kink very well could have occurred while still in the seller's possession. I'm simply not seeing nearly enough context clues that come even close to pointing toward the OP being at fault. I think this one's a wash.

Originally Posted by Snake-Queen

Any argument about shipping is null, these were not shipped. Picking them up in person is usually ideal, as the buyer can inspect them before taking final possession of them. The OP chose not to do so, instead, she put them in the back seat of a vehicle, in the winter time & ran errands. When returning home, instead of finally inspecting them, they are left on her bed while she ate dinner.

More of the grasping-at-imaginary-straws nonsense that made you look foolish to begin with. Since you're trying to paint the picture that 3 hours in a deli cup is somehow analogous to mistreatment, the points on shipping are absolutely valid. Not being an "ideal" scenario doesn't equate to being a bad one. Not even close.

Originally Posted by Apex Reptiles

They were sold to me as extreme Harley's from guyco geckos. Jon and Guy and good friends of mine so I know I did not represent the animal wrong, unless somehow they did.

Originally Posted by Snake-Queen

Where is this ad, that states it is an extreme? You have plenty of screenshots of ads that do not pertain to your sale.

The seller admitted that he represented them as extremes. But it's okay, don't bother to actually read the thread. I'll do the work for you. Wouldn't want you to sprain anything while trying to fumble your way through what's been posted. You're welcome.

Originally Posted by AphroditeGeckos

ya ya ya. I've read that over and over at this point ya'll are just boring me.

Dan I appreciate that you're trying to be unbiased, and I think that that is important. However, I honestly haven't seen any proof of what the OP is claiming at all, and I have never gotten a snake shipped/picked up that I didn't IMMEDIATELY take out and look at to make sure it was completely healthy. It just sounds sketchy to me to get a brand new animal and not want to take it out and look at it. Especially as a new reptile owner, I wouldn't be able to wait to take them out and check them.

I have never had someone buy a snake from me that didn't want to just play with them and handle them as soon as they got them...I usually have to tell them to leave them alone for a few days so they can settle in. It just doesn't add up unless the OP is honestly completely indifferent as to their well-being and is only looking at this as a way to make some quick money breeding them. Am I making assumptions? Admittedly yes, but they're based on her attitude and the things that she has openly stated in this thread.

The quoted text I have used is about as good of an example as there is. Does this sound like a credible person you would trust in a "word against word" situation? If you do that's your business, but notice everyone refers to her as a "girl," not a "woman." There is a very good reason for that, and it's because she sounds like an irresponsible child who should probably not own animals.

Originally Posted by MCMB-2

It just sounds sketchy to me to get a brand new animal and not want to take it out and look at it. Especially as a new reptile owner, I wouldn't be able to wait to take them out and check them.

I'm also a pretty hands-on person, but what we're inclined to do isn't necessarily relevant here. Sensibilities vary. I think it's a huge stretch, to say that that equates to any degree of indifference to the animal's well-being. A clear deli cup gives a good enough view to see any major issues that would tend to jump out at someone. You can tell skin tone/hydration, level of alertness and activity, fat deposits, etc. I just don't believe that a possible deficit in a buyer's diligence shouldn't inherently pardon a seller who may have supplied a sub-par animal.

Originally Posted by MCMB-2

The quoted text I have used is about as good of an example as there is. Does this sound like a credible person you would trust in a "word against word" situation? If you do that's your business, but notice everyone refers to her as a "girl," not a "woman." There is a very good reason for that, and it's because she sounds like an irresponsible child who should probably not own animals.

Let's not pretend that there's no possible causality aspect to have brought about her attitude. There's a definite fluster-factor to these situations. Sometimes, it's just too hard to resist giving back what you're getting. All things considered, she's handled herself better than some seasoned vets that find their way onto the BOI. I get the impression that she's basically a total noob, which makes it hard for me to take her to task for lashing out at those who are going out of their way to avoid seeing any part of her side. And if I'm right about her noobness, it also becomes harder for me to justify kickign her in the nads for not doing everything exactly right, in regard to her immediate inspection or lack thereof. I've seen much worse from people who are still widely-respected.

Since you bring up one's tone, no issue with the F-bombs that the seller dropped in their correspondence? Although we don't have the whole convo, I do find it noteworthy that people who'd normally jump all over that are oddly silent about it. It's pretty rare that I find myself thinking that everyone's missed the whole point and went after someone who wasn't deserving of it. This is just one of the situations where that's exactly the conclusion that I've come to. As I'd already said, I'm just not seeing what most of you are.

Originally Posted by Fangthane

Since you bring up one's tone, no issue with the F-bombs that the seller dropped in their correspondence? Although we don't have the whole convo, I do find it noteworthy that people who'd normally jump all over that are oddly silent about it. It's pretty rare that I find myself thinking that everyone's missed the whole point and went after someone who wasn't deserving of it. This is just one of the situations where that's exactly the conclusion that I've come to. As I'd already said, I'm just not seeing what most of you are.

The reason I had no issue with that is because somehow that's the only snippet we received from the buyer. I don't know about you, but at the point where I'm mad enough to say something like that, someone has pushed me pretty far. It's interesting to me that the buyer "conveniently" left out whatever she said before that led him to that point. Seems a little too obvious to me.

I think that you're right in remaining skeptical, and unfortunately this happens in BOI posts a lot...it's easier to jump on the moving train than to get it to change directions. Her attitude and the way she has responded (or intentionally not responded) to people's questions is what makes me have little sympathy for her...I think that's where a lot of other people who would normally remain neutral in this situation are also sitting.

I think you're spot on with your observations and points you've made in your posts, but everything she has said has caused me to question her tremendously. And I understand your point with the shipping, but you really can't compare the two...no one WANTS to leave a reptile in a box for 12 hours, it's a necessary thing to get them safely to their new owner. Intentionally leaving them in a deli cup on the back seat of a car for 3 hours instead of getting them into a proper habitat, when you have full ability to do so, is extremely irresponsible. I just can't imagine doing that to an animal I care about.

Oh, and the whole "demented grandmother" who they have to do whatever she says or she flips out and they have to fear for their life, and that's why she has to drive around with reptiles in the back seat? Come on.

Originally Posted by Fangthane

There's a definite fluster-factor to these situations. Sometimes, it's just too hard to resist giving back what you're getting. All things considered, she's handled herself better than some seasoned vets that find their way onto the BOI.

I entirely agree with this statement...I've seen people completely lose it on here when they come under question. Keep in mind though, those are the same people who end up getting blacklisted because you see what type of person they really are.

If you can't keep your cool under questioning, reason leads me to think that you're either being dishonest, have something to hide, or don't want to admit you did something wrong. I didn't see anyone push her so far that she would snap for no reason, but she has anyway (to some extent). You're right, that doesn't excuse a poor seller, but we really haven't seen any proof that the little guy arrived with a kinked tail...only that now he has a kink. When and how it happened, we don't know, and she hasn't provided proof to say it was the seller other than that "he must have done it because he was in a hurry." That's just not enough for me.

I have seen her make empty claims, such as how he's a terrible breeder and stunted the males growth by letting him get his rocks off once. Then people repeatedly ask if he's eating and she completely avoids the question so that she won't look dumb. Too many little things that rub me the wrong way.

Originally Posted by MCMB-2

The reason I had no issue with that is because somehow that's the only snippet we received from the buyer.

Actually, there are several snippets of their conversations posted in this thread. Really look through this thread and tell me it's not uncanny how people are managing to miss so much. It's not even a very long thread, and so much is being conveniently overlooked. Anyway, none of the snippets that I've seen have shown the buyer to be even slightly aggressive. The seller said that she was "extremely rude" to him. Where's his proof that what she said justified his response? Why is no one clamoring for that? See, that's part of my point. People seem to be going out of their way to focus on OP's words with extreme prejudice, but the seller is somehow free from the need to back up what he says. It seems to have been decided that somehow the OP was the default loser nearly from the beginning. This seems like the BOI thread from Bizarro World.

Originally Posted by MCMB-2

Intentionally leaving them in a deli cup on the back seat of a car for 3 hours instead of getting them into a proper habitat, when you have full ability to do so, is extremely irresponsible.

Guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this. No one's presented a single point that makes me reconsider my absolute belief that some of you are seriously reaching for what's not there. We're clearly seeing two entirely different things here.

Originally Posted by MCMB-2

Oh, and the whole "demented grandmother" who they have to do whatever she says or she flips out and they have to fear for their life, and that's why she has to drive around with reptiles in the back seat? Come on.

My specific living situation allows me to see what she's said as an extremely plausible scenario. I'm by no means a weak-willed person, but living with those who have mental illnesses can work to derail your own life and make it more about them. If it's not something you've dealt with, count yourself lucky.

Originally Posted by MCMB-2

Keep in mind though, those are the same people who end up getting blacklisted because you see what type of person they really are.

Hardly. I've read an ungodly amount of these threads. As often as not, if people want what you're selling, it's amazing what they're willing to look past.

Originally Posted by MCMB-2

I didn't see anyone push her so far that she would snap for no reason, but she has anyway (to some extent).

What bends one man may just break another. However, I've yet to see this "snap." It comes across to me as little more than frustrated disbelief. But maybe I'm just projecting, much like many of you are doing.

I wasn't always calm and collected; I'm no stranger to actually snapping. I've felt the need to get fairly hostile over handling that wasn't much worse than what the OP's faced. Knowing that, is my integrity now in question?

Frankly, I don't really care enough about this dead horse to keep on flailing away at it. Me and mine will see things one way; you and yours have a different view. I do thank you for actually trying to have an intelligent, analytical discussion, though. It's more than can be reasonably expected from some.