Avoid Steven Patterson (Apex Reptile Center) at all costs!

Just as Dan pointed out, I, too, think this is a wash.
No concrete evidence/proof, from either side, of when, where, or how, the male's tail became kinked.
Also, the seller offered a replacement and the OP is refusing it. Stating that she will just keep the gecko.
There isn't really anywhere to go from here. Well, unless the seller decides that, right or wrong, he will give the OP a partial refund.

A kinked tail, from injury, is no big deal with a Crested gecko.
Even so, I can understand the OP being upset if the kink was not disclosed (and if, indeed, it did not occur in the short time, that she had the geckos, before noticing it).

Without any proof, or true knowledge, about how, when, or where the kink occurred, this is a case where the OP should use the experience as a life lesson.
Whenever a critter is picked up, in person, Never let the seller leave until after you have inspected the critter. I don't care how much someone is in a hurry. It doesn't take very long to look a critter over.

I have done in person transactions as both the buyer and seller.
As the seller, I have the buyer examine the critter before we part ways. If the buyer takes it upon themselves, to check the critter, I welcome it. If they do not, I will request that they look it over.
As a buyer, as soon as I hand over the payment, I request that the seller count the money, in front of me, while we are still together.

I, personally, do not find it so egregious that the OP had the geckos, in her vehicle, for the time it took to do her errands. This is only if the vehicle remained at a comfortable temperature (even while the OP was out of the vehicle).
Although, I must say that I do not understand why the geckos had to wait until after the OP had dinner. It may not necessarily mean that the OP was 100% in the wrong for doing so. However, its being unacceptable, to me, mostly stems from the fact that, no matter how hungry/starving I may be, I will always put a critter's care before "feeding my face".

As for the "F-bombs, from the seller, they are inexcusable from a professional stand point. No matter how aggravated he may have been. Even more professionally unacceptable if the OP had remained even keeled up to that point (before the F-bombs were dropped).

Originally Posted by Pasodama

As a buyer, as soon as I hand over the payment, I request that the seller count the money, in front of me, while we are still together

Meant to add, to my above quote, that I also make sure to look the critter over.

Originally Posted by Pasodama

Just as Dan pointed out, I, too, think this is a wash.
No concrete evidence/proof, from either side, of when, where, or how, the male's tail became kinked.
Also, the seller offered a replacement and the OP is refusing it. Stating that she will just keep the gecko.
There isn't really anywhere to go from here. Well, unless the seller decides that, right or wrong, he will give the OP a partial refund.

A kinked tail, from injury, is no big deal with a Crested gecko.
Even so, I can understand the OP being upset if the kink was not disclosed (and if, indeed, it did not occur in the short time, that she had the geckos, before noticing it).

Without any proof, or true knowledge, about how, when, or where the kink occurred, this is a case where the OP should use the experience as a life lesson.
Whenever a critter is picked up, in person, Never let the seller leave until after you have inspected the critter. I don't care how much someone is in a hurry. It doesn't take very long to look a critter over.

I have done in person transactions as both the buyer and seller.
As the seller, I have the buyer examine the critter before we part ways. If the buyer takes it upon themselves, to check the critter, I welcome it. If they do not, I will request that they look it over.
As a buyer, as soon as I hand over the payment, I request that the seller count the money, in front of me, while we are still together.

I, personally, do not find it so egregious that the OP had the geckos, in her vehicle, for the time it took to do her errands. This is only if the vehicle remained at a comfortable temperature (even while the OP was out of the vehicle).
Although, I must say that I do not understand why the geckos had to wait until after the OP had dinner. It may not necessarily mean that the OP was 100% in the wrong for doing so. However, its being unacceptable, to me, mostly stems from the fact that, no matter how hungry/starving I may be, I will always put a critter's care before "feeding my face".

As for the "F-bombs, from the seller, they are inexcusable from a professional stand point. No matter how aggravated he may have been. Even more professionally unacceptable if the OP had remained even keeled up to that point (before the F-bombs were dropped).

Perfectly summarized!!

Originally Posted by Fangthane

Since you bring up one's tone, no issue with the F-bombs that the seller dropped in their correspondence? Although we don't have the whole convo, I do find it noteworthy that people who'd normally jump all over that are oddly silent about it. It's pretty rare that I find myself thinking that everyone's missed the whole point and went after someone who wasn't deserving of it. This is just one of the situations where that's exactly the conclusion that I've come to. As I'd already said, I'm just not seeing what most of you are.

How are we to know that she didn't provoke the seller? Although, swearing when acting as professional, is never ok IMO. It was overlooked, mainly because that it was a snippet, not the whole conversation.

Originally Posted by Pasodama

Just as Dan pointed out, I, too, think this is a wash.
No concrete evidence/proof, from either side, of when, where, or how, the male's tail became kinked.
Also, the seller offered a replacement and the OP is refusing it. Stating that she will just keep the gecko.
There isn't really anywhere to go from here. Well, unless the seller decides that, right or wrong, he will give the OP a partial refund.

A kinked tail, from injury, is no big deal with a Crested gecko.
Even so, I can understand the OP being upset if the kink was not disclosed (and if, indeed, it did not occur in the short time, that she had the geckos, before noticing it).

Without any proof, or true knowledge, about how, when, or where the kink occurred, this is a case where the OP should use the experience as a life lesson.
Whenever a critter is picked up, in person, Never let the seller leave until after you have inspected the critter. I don't care how much someone is in a hurry. It doesn't take very long to look a critter over.

I have done in person transactions as both the buyer and seller.
As the seller, I have the buyer examine the critter before we part ways. If the buyer takes it upon themselves, to check the critter, I welcome it. If they do not, I will request that they look it over.
As a buyer, as soon as I hand over the payment, I request that the seller count the money, in front of me, while we are still together.

I, personally, do not find it so egregious that the OP had the geckos, in her vehicle, for the time it took to do her errands. This is only if the vehicle remained at a comfortable temperature (even while the OP was out of the vehicle).
Although, I must say that I do not understand why the geckos had to wait until after the OP had dinner. It may not necessarily mean that the OP was 100% in the wrong for doing so. However, its being unacceptable, to me, mostly stems from the fact that, no matter how hungry/starving I may be, I will always put a critter's care before "feeding my face".

As for the "F-bombs, from the seller, they are inexcusable from a professional stand point. No matter how aggravated he may have been. Even more professionally unacceptable if the OP had remained even keeled up to that point (before the F-bombs were dropped).

Exactly.


This ...

Originally Posted by Pasodama

However, its being unacceptable, to me, mostly stems from the fact that, no matter how hungry/starving I may be, I will always put a critter's care before "feeding my face".

The fact that she admitted to eating before taking care of the critters, is more than likely I am biased against the OP. This action, is completely irresponsible to me.

I can only speak for myself, but while being in a deli cup for a few hours isn't directly negligent in any way, I'm always take the critter out as soon as I can because I can never be quite sure how long the critter has been in the deli cup. Was it packed up an hour before delivery? The night before? Has this gecko been in the deli cup the whole time between the photo being taken and the actual delivery (2 days later)? Who knows.

I get the shipping argument, being in a deli cup is safe for shipping, but I still believe it is stressful for the animal to some degree, and so why frivolously delay getting the critter into its new set up?

Still, I still have a hard time believing the geckos tail could get kinked while in a deli cup unless someone opened it and closed it on the tail. Neither the OP nor the seller is offering any further evidence or proof..

*I always take the critter out...

Originally Posted by MCMB-2

The reason I had no issue with that is because somehow that's the only snippet we received from the buyer. I don't know about you, but at the point where I'm mad enough to say something like that, someone has pushed me pretty far. It's interesting to me that the buyer "conveniently" left out whatever she said before that led him to that point. Seems a little too obvious to me.

I think that you're right in remaining skeptical, and unfortunately this happens in BOI posts a lot...it's easier to jump on the moving train than to get it to change directions. Her attitude and the way she has responded (or intentionally not responded) to people's questions is what makes me have little sympathy for her...I think that's where a lot of other people who would normally remain neutral in this situation are also sitting.

I think you're spot on with your observations and points you've made in your posts, but everything she has said has caused me to question her tremendously. And I understand your point with the shipping, but you really can't compare the two...no one WANTS to leave a reptile in a box for 12 hours, it's a necessary thing to get them safely to their new owner. Intentionally leaving them in a deli cup on the back seat of a car for 3 hours instead of getting them into a proper habitat, when you have full ability to do so, is extremely irresponsible. I just can't imagine doing that to an animal I care about.

Oh, and the whole "demented grandmother" who they have to do whatever she says or she flips out and they have to fear for their life, and that's why she has to drive around with reptiles in the back seat? Come on.

I must say I didn't da with dementia, but I did take care of my disabled father who if he didn't get his way he would make my life hell. If you have never had to deal with anything like that DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DISCREDIT HER!

Didn't deal*

Little kids throw tantrums too when they don't get what they want; does this mean you should give them everything they demand?

My mother and grandmother both have severe psychosis, so I treat them how they act...just like a little kid who doesn't know any better. They don't have the mental stability to make intelligent decisions, it falls on others to do that for them. If you don't do that and instead give in to whatever they want, is that really helpful to them? Or you for that matter?

Originally Posted by MCMB-2

Little kids throw tantrums too when they don't get what they want; does this mean you should give them everything they demand?

My mother and grandmother both have severe psychosis, so I treat them how they act...just like a little kid who doesn't know any better. They don't have the mental stability to make intelligent decisions, it falls on others to do that for them. If you don't do that and instead give in to whatever they want, is that really helpful to them? Or you for that matter?

Comparing a child to an adult that can do serious bodily harm, yea that's logical. She said the grandmother gets violent. Just because she said "grandma" doesn't make her old and weak. Even my disabled father could do some damage to the point he had to be tazed because he was violently attacking paramedics after a seizure and broke the straps on the flat board.

You are just looking for any excuse to continue your crusade against her for wow, not taking geckos out of a cup for a couple hours. That's not abuse. Yea a lot of people would go straight home some people don't especially when they picked it up while doing things. As long as it was warm enough there is no reason to attribute it to abuse or not caring about their welfare. You can easily look in a clear deli cup and see if the animal is still calm or distressed. But go ahead and keep attacking her because YOU think she could have done things differently. Hindsight is 20/20 and beating her up over it makes you worse than what you're accusing her of.