Not to beat a dead horse...

... I think there was some life left, so this may be a mercy blow. Just kinda looking for clarification and NOT to stir up a mass of trouble.

There was a thread which was started by Gary Orner asking if Fauna might support an online petition regarding venomoids, Rich responded saying he had no avaliable banner space (A very commendable thing, not allowing advertisers to drop below a certain number of impressions) which kinda answered a part of the question but not all of it.

Then things hit the fan for awhile due pretty much to some misunderstandings and communication problems. There was some resolution but nothing really concrete.

So, without dredging up any of the *problems* which the miscommunications caused and addressing ONLY the issues...

I know that you had said you weren't willing to devote time and engery towards another battle, you have picked your wars and I believe everyone respects that. You can't be faulted for not taking on every battle and burning yourself out, you've already devoted far more time and resources than the majority have on herp related issues which you feel would better the community and industry as a whole. I also recall you stating that you were still personally fairly on the fence about the issue of venomoids and venomoid creation.

I was wondering if it might be possible (keep in mind that a negative or neutral response is absolutely understandable) if a post were written that introduced the subject in a neutral manner and contained a link to the petition (which is and may always be a work in progress as Scott refines the ideas and wording in response to misunderstandings as they occur) that fauna members could choose to read (or not read) and "sign" (or not "sign") as they see fit... And if such a post could possibly be a sticky, so as to save others the effort of finding clever ways to bump it. If you might consider this, would you consider placing it on the BOI (Traffic issues, plus it deals with a broad spectrum industry related issue) or possibly the general business discussions, or would you find the venomous forum more appropriate?

(The next few question/proposals get steadily more subjective and entail more fauna support)

How about a somewhat less neutral post? Perhaps one which explains the reasons that have prompted many keepers to take up an anti-venomoid stance?

Would you consider, if sufficient evidence could be presented to convince you and your mods or the members who have access to the steering comittee area that it was a business/ethical issue worthy of such steps, disallowing venomoids in your own classified sections as of a specified date?

How about adding Fauna to the list of sites which take an anti-venomoid stance, even if banner space is at a premium and no banner ads could be placed here? It would add Fauna banners to other websites with a similar stance, even if Fauna does not reciprocate the promotion, or not as is your prefference.

I'd wager there's a waiting list for banner space, would you allow a banner to be purchased by an individual (or group) which has an anti-venomoid message and links to another anti-venomoid website? Please keep in mind that the individuals considering the purchase understand your banner ad policies and would be willing to wait in line as any other advertiser would.

I do not want to add a lecture about why I think venomoids are wrong at this juncture, unless I am informed that such a post would be welcomed or of interest but I will note that I feel it's an important issue to more than just venomous keepers, although the impact to any given individual will obviously vary and some just won't care one way or the other... I do not have a "With us or against us" mentality and any rejection or abstinance will not be met with rancor and the issue will be dropped unless I am given the impression that further information/discussion is desired.

Thanks for your time, regardless of your choices.

topic: venomous or venomoid?
inside thread: you chose!! and a link
nothing more basic and neutral than that

oh seamus,read rich's new sticky you need to make your signature a bit shorter but personally i would keep that link there, that thing cracks me up

Well I think everyone from Reptile Room knows my stand on venomoid's. To be honest when I first got into reptiles I thought it would be neat to get one because of the lack of risk if you get tagged. After much research I came to the conclusion it wasn't a humane practice and the death rate is so high with venomoids it wasn't worth the risk.

As for other forums they allow these hackers to sell their creations because it is a check in their account. Simple fact is money talks and BS walks. But here we can make a difference if allowed to. It is a big decision to make and not an easy one. But knowing what i know now I look back at when I first started thinking of geting and species of venomous reptile I see how want overpowered practical research. Now that I have been a happy keeper of Trig trim and D. russelli I would have it no other way.

I was wondering if it might be possible (keep in mind that a negative or neutral response is absolutely understandable) if a post were written that introduced the subject in a neutral manner and contained a link to the petition (which is and may always be a work in progress as Scott refines the ideas and wording in response to misunderstandings as they occur) that fauna members could choose to read (or not read) and "sign" (or not "sign") as they see fit... And if such a post could possibly be a sticky, so as to save others the effort of finding clever ways to bump it. If you might consider this, would you consider placing it on the BOI (Traffic issues, plus it deals with a broad spectrum industry related issue) or possibly the general business discussions, or would you find the venomous forum more appropriate?

Sorry, but no, I am not inclined to do that. I am fully aware of the traffic patterns on this site, but I am trying to curb that, rather then feed that tendency. In some ways it is not as bad as it used to be, so people are diversifying their reading habits a bit more around here.

(The next few question/proposals get steadily more subjective and entail more fauna support)

How about a somewhat less neutral post? Perhaps one which explains the reasons that have prompted many keepers to take up an anti-venomoid stance?

Anyone is welcome to post such a thread in any forum where it is appropriate. But I do not want to see someone make a crusade over it and attempt to flood this entire site with their opinions on this issue. And I particularly do not want to see this erupt into heated battles between people of dissimilar stances using this site as their battle arena.

Would you consider, if sufficient evidence could be presented to convince you and your mods or the members who have access to the steering comittee area that it was a business/ethical issue worthy of such steps, disallowing venomoids in your own classified sections as of a specified date?

No. As was stated previously in a thread on the BOI posted by Gary Orner. It is not my, nor my moderator's, position to do such a thing. It is not fair or US to force our personal opinions on other people telling them what they can and cannot sell on the classifieds. Why not, then carry it further? Ban wild caughts. Ban color and pattern mutations. Ban ads from people considered unfit to care for animals. Etc., etc., based on what is the darling position of the moment for us to have as a crusade.

How about adding Fauna to the list of sites which take an anti-venomoid stance, even if banner space is at a premium and no banner ads could be placed here? It would add Fauna banners to other websites with a similar stance, even if Fauna does not reciprocate the promotion, or not as is your prefference.

Sorry, but no. I am not taking a stance. Although I can certainly have my own personal opinions about such things, I am disinclined to try to force users of this site to be railroaded by such an opinion.

Matter of fact, due to lack of apparent interest in other crusades I have tried carrying, I may just drop all such fruitless efforts completely. Anytime you try to rally people to a cause, you invariably cause a split among factions and do not get the uniform consensus you were hoping for. So as far as I can see all such actions are more damaging than helpful to our industry as a whole. Unfortunate and disappointing, but that is the way I have seen it.

No one more than me wishes that WE could all stand together on issues and be a force to reckon with, but no, self interest is more the rule then the exception. Again, unfortunate and disappointing, but I'm still learning.

I'd wager there's a waiting list for banner space, would you allow a banner to be purchased by an individual (or group) which has an anti-venomoid message and links to another anti-venomoid website? Please keep in mind that the individuals considering the purchase understand your banner ad policies and would be willing to wait in line as any other advertiser would.

I wouldn't have a problem with this. Of course, I wonder what some people would think if HSUS paid for a banner ad here as well.....

I do not want to add a lecture about why I think venomoids are wrong at this juncture, unless I am informed that such a post would be welcomed or of interest but I will note that I feel it's an important issue to more than just venomous keepers, although the impact to any given individual will obviously vary and some just won't care one way or the other... I do not have a "With us or against us" mentality and any rejection or abstinance will not be met with rancor and the issue will be dropped unless I am given the impression that further information/discussion is desired.

Thanks for your time, regardless of your choices.

There is a Venomous Discussion forum on this site that such discussion would be appropriates placed. But just as I have had to squelch feuds between dueling parties, I could consider such action as being appropriate if it took place between warring CAMPS as well as warring INDIVIDUALS.

Question Webslave. This is an honest question.

Is it ok to post about ads selling Venomoids? Like lets say seller is emailed by a buyer and the Seller tells this person that the Snake was not done by a vet or can not prove it was done by a vet. Could we make a post on the BOI about it.

I think you said yes but I am no a little confused lol.

Because this is not a thing against Voids but against the back yard surgeries. Well you knew that.

Thanks man

Gary,

Yes, that would be OK. As long as it was an issue about that particular seller and not an opportunity for people to jump on a soapbox about venomoids in general. The actual discussions about venomoids should be limited to within forums where it is appropriate discussion material.

That's also why I enabled replies to the classified ads. To allow discussions where situations may need to be discusssed right at the classified ad itself. But bear in mind that anyone posting an ad has the capability of locking that ad against replies. This was done as a compromise between the people who wanted replies and those that did not.

Thanks bro!

I thought that is what you were meaning but I just wanted to be sure.