Sunshinedragons

But I, myself, with my scientific background, would not take one negative fecal as "proof" of an uninfected colony by any breeder.
I would not either, especially when you factor in the incubation period. Some are running the tests knowing the way they do it is not accurate, as the labs do not have the equipment too. It is shooting in the dark without preserving the fecals, and delays at labs in testing till the samples degrades. They MIGHT show positive if positive, but chances are good they will not, so they get negative readings, but what about positive tests? Those ARE accurate.

Jamie and JIm
Would you take positive tests and knowing you have MANY prime age adult breeders die recently, and then realize you have a current problem? OR would you rush to sell them to the public/send them out to other breeders to pay off debts and claim its okay, all the time telling others that know you are positive that:
"We are not selling at this time.
we either send people to other Breeders telling them we don't have what they want, give them prices above what we post, and basically are just stalling
We are not selling any dragons even though we are posting. We are stalling; directing people to other breeders; quoting prices above what Dragons are listed for etc. until we have finished the process, and done what is necessary to correct what needs to be addressed.
That is what Bruce told me Oct 1, 2006 -Oct 21, 2006, the whole time he was sending them out, people on here have posted they got them in that time frame, now he admits he was selling them also, still is (remember he is bragging in this tread that he is selling more than ever) and admits they were positive.

How many positive infected dragons, appearing healthy, are you willing to bring into your collection from him? And you have the advantage of having read this..... so you KNOW up front, many never get that chance.

That is the issue in this thread, This only addresses a collection that it is known to have positive tests, are selling those to others and claiming he needs the money to pay suppliers and his mortgage. Not what he did 2 months okay, or the quality, size, stud ability or anything else of the past...... now, since he had problems, die offs and knows he has positive animals. That it! nothing more and nothing less

It is just plain wrong, and several other choice words that have been used on this thread and anyone that supports that action is wrong IMO. At least tell people you are selling them infected animals so they can TRY and protect their existing dragons and have the choice to expose them. A breeder did this same thing in 2002 and that is where Bruce, Wendy, Suzanne, Andy and many breeders that are reading this and not posting on here got it from

Are you ignoring what Dr Jacobson , Dr Wentz and the person running the tests say, all who have worked with this virus? They do not have all the answers, they do have some and they certainly have advice based on decades of experience based on bearded dragon and virus. It would seem so from some of your above statements and one of them was concerned enough about what was being said in mailings and online....claims that him and his staff said, he wrote a letter with all their consent to the community to clear it up. Have you read that too?

Originally Posted by CheriS

Are you ignoring what Dr Jacobson , Dr Wentz and the person running the tests say, all who have worked with this virus?

No, but they are basing their opinions on conjecture, not scientific proof, and that was, and still is my point. They are only opinions, informed ones perhaps, but still just speculative. It can be my "informed opinion" that going out on a cold day causes pneumonia but it may not be so. Similarly with Linus Pauling and Vitamin C. He was a Noble Laureate but his later "work" and opinions were bunk and have never been confirmed.

Again, where are the hordes of dead dragons?

Selling sick and dying animals to unload them on unsuspecting individuals is morally reprehensible. But selling outwardly healthy dragons with full disclosure of their status (tested positive, tested negative, not tested) is not. With full disclosure the buyer can make as informed decision as is possible.

He can't sell the sick and dying because they already died before they were old enough to sell. So, the ones who are strong enough to make it past this stage are sold to repeat the cycle. Bruce had adult, breeding age beardies die in his collection in the last year, he won't say what they died from but they were far from dying of old age. I know nobody wants to buy a healthy, robust appearing dragon that will only live a few years and it die before it's time due to Adeno.....especially if they weren't told they had it.

I don't have any idea about the technical aspects of this virus but from a consumers point of view I think if a breeder is offered a way to test their dragons to see if they have a disease that could shorten their lives, then they are obligated to have that test done. If they find out their dragons are infected then they are also obligated in telling the buyer. If these were dogs and the parents had handed down a genetic disorder then the breeder would be responsible but since reptiles aren't the normal pet, rules don't apply here and that is wrong.
I don't care if this virus isn't understood, I care about all the little ones that died in Wendy's colony. I care that there are breeders out there that doesn't give a damn about selling infected dragons. I care that these same breeders thinks it's alright to hide this fact.

I bought a dog with genetic mange that the person selling did not inform me of. After a few weeks of bringing her home it cost hundreds of dollars to get her well. Now as an adult dog she is ok but is a carrier, and I was told when she starts getting old we could have a repeat of what we had before. The Breeder took no responsibly but to say she never had a problem before. My dog as much as I love her, I would not had bought her because of this if I had known. I had the right to know to make a decision to take that risk.

Buying a bearded dragon is no different. A buyer should be informed of the disease so they can make the decision if they want to put out the money and buy all the stuff that goes along with it and take the chance. I as a consumer would not want to spend a lot on something that might not last. Healthy as they may seem they are carriers. This carrier could infect others bought.

The only thing I wanted was the truth. I was told I could ask and I came out and asked but did not receive the answer. Did my dragons parents test positive? Were they even tested? I guess I will never know.

Originally Posted by Jim O

Again, where are the hordes of dead dragons?

Selling sick and dying animals to unload them on unsuspecting individuals is morally reprehensible. But selling outwardly healthy dragons with full disclosure of their status (tested positive, tested negative, not tested) is not. With full disclosure the buyer can make as informed decision as is possible.

You need to ask Bruce what he did with the die offs he suffered this year. You can also ask Wendy where the hordes of dead dragons are and she will be honest enough to answer you unlike Bruce.
I do agree with the last paragraph of your post in a way. The only thing I can see a problem with is that if the customer knowingly buys and adeno positive baby hopefully they would have the sense to not breed it but unforunately I wouldnt count on it.

Originally Posted by crazyhorse526

You need to ask Bruce what he did with the die offs he suffered this year. You can also ask Wendy where the hordes of dead dragons are and she will be honest enough to answer you unlike Bruce.
I do agree with the last paragraph of your post in a way. The only thing I can see a problem with is that if the customer knowingly buys and adeno positive baby hopefully they would have the sense to not breed it but unforunately I wouldnt count on it.

My question is based on the the likelihood that adenovirus infection is not limited to one or two breeders but that it is more than likely widespread given the amount of "traffic" between breeders. So it is not limited to Bruce, who I agree is less than forthcoming, but to all the clutches of all the breeders out there. Again, I'm thinking that there are probably some serotypes that are more pathogenic than are others, but the data is not available.

To put another way, I have seen people die of herpes encephalitis. Does that mean that everyone who has ever has a cold sore should be quarantined because they could spread that potentially deadly virus? This is not a cut and dried issue. It's way more complicated than that, and what is best is for each individual to decide. I may decide to buy untested babies from untested parents because I make an informed decision to do so. I may also decline to buy from a breeder who declines to test. Each would be my choice to make. What I would have a legitimate gripe at is a breeder who fails to disclose positive tests and other salient data, thereby depriving me of my right to know the full story.

Originally Posted by Jim O

My question is based on the the likelihood that adenovirus infection is not limited to one or two breeders but that it is more than likely widespread given the amount of "traffic" between breeders. So it is not limited to Bruce, who I agree is less than forthcoming, but to all the clutches of all the breeders out there. Again, I'm thinking that there are probably some serotypes that are more pathogenic than are others, but the data is not available.

To put another way, I have seen people die of herpes encephalitis. Does that mean that everyone who has ever has a cold sore should be quarantined because they could spread that potentially deadly virus? This is not a cut and dried issue. It's way more complicated than that, and what is best is for each individual to decide. I may decide to buy untested babies from untested parents because I make an informed decision to do so. I may also decline to buy from a breeder who declines to test. Each would be my choice to make. What I would have a legitimate gripe at is a breeder who fails to disclose positive tests and other salient data, thereby depriving me of my right to know the full story.

To add even another twist any breeder can agree to test and then collect the samples wrong accidentally or on purpose and he will get a negative result. I guess in the end you just have to know or trust a breeders reputation. I think that is what the BOI is all about. This post has hit on about every point it can and if someone still feels safe enough to go buy a Sunshine dragon then good luck to them and I hope they get a healthy dragon.
I cant argue with any of your points and think you have some good ones. I will personally be very careful where I buy my dragons from and try to take the safest route and test all my breeders again and any new additons in the future.

Originally Posted by crazyhorse526

To add even another twist any breeder can agree to test and then collect the samples wrong accidentally or on purpose and he will get a negative result. I guess in the end you just have to know or trust a breeders reputation.

This is very true. Anyone can lie or produce "doctored" results. And again, even a negative test provides only a limited amount of information -- that is that the dragon was not excreting virus at that time. The animal may still be infected.

Originally Posted by crazyhorse526

I think that is what the BOI is all about. This post has hit on about every point it can and if someone still feels safe enough to go buy a Sunshine dragon then good luck to them and I hope they get a healthy dragon.

Not that I am currently in the market, but I also would not be buying from them. I do not believe that they can be trusted to give full disclosure, but again, that is just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Jim O

This is very true. Anyone can lie or produce "doctored" results. And again, even a negative test provides only a limited amount of information -- that is that the dragon was not excreting virus at that time. The animal may still be infected.


Not that I am currently in the market, but I also would not be buying from them. I do not believe that they can be trusted to give full disclosure, but again, that is just my opinion.

I think this is good time to have everyone join in and get a group hug going....
except for Bruce, I dont want anything to spread to my colony....hehehe

I have taken in rescues .... BUT was informed of what I was getting into . When getting a baby dragon from a breeder I don't think it should end up being a rescue because health information wasn't disclosed !

I got a baby dragon over the summer who later I was informed MIGHT have this virus and to keep a good eye on him ! I did and sense then the breeder went and had the parents to this baby tested . That came back negative . This same breeder I got an adult dragon from that we thought may have had a RI and he took this dragon back and took him to 3 different Herp Vets to be checked out ..... It turns out the symptoms was caused by the stress of his moving ( he has a birth defect and will NOT be breed for any reason ) but this is a breeder I think VERY highly of and would get more dragons from ...

Sunshine dragons selling babies that are known to be possibly carrying or known to have it and selling them to other people is NOT responsible breeders ! breeding is to be done to improve or to keep the quality of an animal to the fullest possible way and HEALTHY ! Why would anyone go to them to get a dragon after reading these posts is beyond me .

I would NEVER bring an animal into my home that COULD infect my other animals with a illness that can end up killing them in the end . And for them to sell these to people who have no idea what is going on and are possibly new to keeping dragons is just NOT right .......