Andrew Hermes of Arizona Tortoise Compound

I APOLOGIZE to all for the off topic I simply responded to false accusations of me from Mr . Rich

I'm usually a lurker, but the brilliance of Mr. Rich and Neil "corky romano" George have inspired me. I'll try to explain this like I would to my 8 year old.

Andrew ships poorly packaged tortoise. Tortoise urinates in box. Leaking, poorly packaged box causes delay at ups hub 5 HOURS away from erics residence. While at said hub, box is wrapped in plastic bag to contain the leak caused by poor packaging. Plastic bag causes tortoise to suffocate. Animal arrived dead. If tortoise was packaged properly, no leak, no plastic bag, no delay, no dead tortoise. How is that not Andrew's fault?

^just another night at the roxbury huh.. naturally, i'm flattered (as any fellow sympathetic sycophant might be) to be half the impetus for Josh's very first(?) post after 5 yrs of silence as an FCer.

anyways, i apologize to all for misinterpreting the OP; i was not aware that UPS actually delayed the 'Next Day' express shipment into in essence, a '2nd Day' delivery.

i never heard of Andrew Hermes until joining FC and stumbling on this Bad Guys thread about him. figured would try ordering from him just days ago, and all went well, with FedEx and Andrew's torts i purchased directly from his site.

i can fathom how Andrew has improved his shipping because of the drama surrounding the tortoise being delayed by UPS and its subsequent death. ie, no longer ever uses UPS since they do not offer compensation if a live animal dies due to their delays.

has anyone notice that the case is being presented by the OPer that both (1) it was a box leaking tortoise urine that delayed the Next Day shipment by a full day, and that caused UPS to seal the box, suffocating the tortoise to death and (2) UPS indicated the delay was due to flights/packages backed up S. California, delaying the shipment to the OP. heck it could have been both, i suppose, but these 2 very different causal factors being construed so as to place blame solely on the sender.

it only recently dawned on me that most reptile vendors use the type of box containing separate foam panel liners. i mean, i have never ever received a reptile yet contained instead in one-piece foam inner container (the disposable ice box type). yet, everytime i've ordered even dirt cheap bulk feeder goldfish, they have arrived in that more premium, waterproof container. i supposed reptile shippers ought to consider compact versions of such waterproof foam containers, although holes would have to be made in at least the top/lid for some air exchange. considering reptiles may sometimes urinate sizeable amounts of fluid, apparently.

is it also customary for a tortoise to release urine/fluids upon dying/death?

Originally Posted by ErikL

This has been re-hashed so many times. After careful consideration, if Andrew would like to send me three live radiated hatchlings with live arrival guarantee via air freight to the sacramento airport in California at no cost to me, I'll consider the matter closed. I think that's fair.

wowsers and i was somewhat looking forward to see this case or one of similar likeness in litigation on Judge Judy!
wonder if Andrew will consider the settlement counter-offered above, however tardy, after-the-fact(ie. Bad Guys branding), and perhaps excessive..

imagine if they somehow died again; that would be three more lives lost not just.. one.

but yea, why continue to cry over a glass of spilt milk; patience is a virtue ain't it, if he was willing to pour OP another one all along.

Well I thank you guys for your continued comments. I was close to purchasing 1 or 2 tortoises from ATC when I Googled his company. Needless to say thats not going to happen now. Again thank you for the heads up.

I am glad this thread is still going. I was just about to purchase the young adult female sulcata from ATC for my son.

I just ordered a sulcata from them and it was a very good quality tortoise. 28 inches across.110 pounds. Very friendly guy. And it arrived on time and in good shape. Because one person neglected to get his turtle and let it die. It's not a reason to shun ATC. I know other people offering adult sulcata have poor specimens. Just look at the shell. If it's not smooth then that turtle has been neglected diet wise. There for its lifespan is probably cut in half also. ATC has some good stock

Originally Posted by Magic

So what makes a bad guy??

If a seller doesn't properly pack an animal, regardless of the animals value, does that make him bad? I truly think so. That turtle suffered a horrendous death directly due to ATC

If a seller then concocts a story in rebuttal about the trade tort dying but refuses to provide proof, does that make him a lier and a bad guy? I think so. ATC was dishonest from the start concerning this transaction.

If a seller then tries to save face and offer the buyer a completely ridiculous compensation only after this whole goes public, does that make him a bad guy? I think so. And I also thinks it makes him a completely worthless businessman.

The bottom line is that ATC could have taken a monetary hit and taken care of his customer. HE DIDNT. He made excuses. Instead of making this an opportunity to shine and provide excellent customer care, ATC is washing his hands of the whole mess and counting on people forgetting this or hoping enough people will take his side.

This entire mess has gotten THOUSANDS of views, and lost ATC money. It will continue to do so until ATC makes it right with his customer.

It doesn't matter that 99 out of 100 transactions have gone great. Do YOU want to be that 100th person that gets screwed??

No. And that's why the BOI exists.

It doesn't matter that 99 out of 100 transactions have gone great. Do YOU want to be that 100th person that gets screwed??

Nope, not going to let that happen.

It happens. Buying live animals is a gamble. I rear some very rare reptiles and I know that sometimes you can't replace an order with the exact same animal. But in that case wich is rare. We offer a fair replacement. In my case. I won't even sell you a reptile until I screen you and know that you can care for it properly. If it were me. I would take it to court if I were wronged. Also with that being said. If I offered you a replacement animal equal to the other and you slandered my name and buisness. You would be getting a summons. So if Eric had a case. Why did he not take it to court giving the amount of money lost. I would. Given I had a valid case

This has been re-hashed so many times. After careful consideration, if Andrew would like to send me three live radiated hatchlings with live arrival guarantee via air freight to the sacramento airport in California at no cost to me, I'll consider the matter closed. I think that's fair. - Erik Lacey

Not quite sure how after 2 years you now think by me sending you three Radiated hatchlings is fair and we can call this matter closed. Even more shocking is the comment you posted below that stating you would post a good guy thread afterward. Do you think your half hearted Good Guy post would make a difference. Not at all! Your friends have gone on to everyone of my good guy threads and have bashed ever one of my customers that were kind enough to put up a good guy thread. If you google my name, all you would see still is me labeled as a bad guy. What is did, is done, is did. A good guy thread does not get a thousand hits, like a bad guy's does. I didn't even stoop to your level and post a Dr. Erik Lacey "bad guy" "thumbs down" thread to try to ruin your doctor practice. The original cost of the dead tortoise was 3200. You claim to be costing me thousands of dollars each year due to lost sales. Even in this thread you can add up all the claims of people saying that they will never purchase now. If all were true, that alone is way more then 3200 dollars. Its crazy, how Arizona Tortoise Compound still continues to grow ever month, ever year, even with this thread being up for years. Many have to see it has a miss hap that both parties had partaken in and could not for see. My first thought is to continue to stick with my stance and not offer you anything since you rejected my original offer of free tortoises at cost for life since you posted a BOI bad guy. That was your choice and you did choose that. I went above and beyond with that offer since I didn't have to do anything due to you braking the terms. Also I do not trust shipping any tortoises to you EVER again. This would only further create more opportunity for your neglect and cause me further grief. I would like to happily show everyone reading, that I am fair and will offer you two Radiated yearlings, if you come to Arizona and pick them up in person. You would need to bring your Captive Bred Wildlife Permit along for me to release them to you. Offering 2 yearlings is more then meeting in the middle. In turn I do not want a Good Guy post from you. I would like for you to state the truth and tell everyone hear that you knew you could of picked the tortoise up from UPS hub the morning of the second day instead of putting it on the truck for 5 pm deliver with note to "leave at gate". Further more tell them the truth that you knew the first day delay was from the package missing the flight.

I have emails printed out with you stating all of those things. Also have the emails that can show me stating my original offer of tortoises at cost for life. I think that is fair Erik. I currently have 12 hold back Radiateds that you can choose from. I use to sell them to Bill Z before he cut off his tong and imputed lies into this thread on your behalf about me boxing and sending you an already dead tortoise. That claim and so many, many others are just ridiculous.

Three radiated hatchlings shipped air freight to the Sacramento airport, appropriately packaged, with live arrival guaranteed. I will be there waiting for them once we have agreed on a shipping date. I'll be happy to re-send you a copy of my current cbw permit. That's my offer.