Potential Refund Issue Arising, Looking for Advice/Opinions.

This should be the right board for this, instead of the BOI. Long story short, I had a guy email me back in July about wanting to buy some snakes I had. He said he would need them shipped to Upstate New York. I said no problem at all. He sends me $500 as a down payment, then later informs me he's really in Canada. Now 2 problems, one I already forwarded the money from my PayPal account to another guy I owed some money to. And two, I'm not shipping to Canada. Did it once before and it was a huge mess. Domestic sales only. Understanding the situation he had put himself in, I said if I could sell the snakes soon, I would refund his money. (Although, I really have no obligation to do that since he's the one who totally screwed up).

Well, now 4 months later, the snakes in question are gone. I traded them, didn't sell them. And he's emailing me wanting me to send him a "cheque" for his $500. I told him basically that it's not gonna happen and why. I would have gladly refunded the money he pissed away a few months ago if I could have. But it didn't work out that way. I've described this situation to at least 10 people who say I am not responsible in any way for his screw up. Just want to see how many other people believe the same thing, or not. If I'm wrong, tell me. But I personally don't see why I'm obligated at all to go out of my way to make up for him lying about where he lived and then making a stupid mistake. If he would have said from the beginning he was in Canada, that would have been the end of it. Any opinions are appreciated and I also figured this is something we could all learn from. Thanks alot. Ryan.

Legally, you are probably not required to refund his money. He did a stupid thing. Morally, I would suggest you return 50% - 75% of his money, and tell him you're keeping the rest for the trouble and inconvenience his lies cost you. JMO

Normally I would have worked to refund his money, but since he knowingly tried to manipulate conditions of the sale I'd think differently. Telling you he was in Upstate Ny when he really resided in Canada is a 'no no'...

I would tell him his deposit was non-refundable, and inform him there is a lesson to be learned.... Next time I am sure he'll remember the hit he took for lying and be thruthful about his location.

I'm not sure if legally you are covered. You took money and didn't send anything, bottom line. Then of course it could end up being a he said/ he said issue. He may say he didn't mention he was in Canada, because he didn't realize it made any difference, or that you didn't specify 48 states only (check KS ads, many of them mention that right in the initial ad line). In my opinion only, unless you have "iron clad" proof that he knew he was trying to put one over on you, for example; e-mails stating..."I don't ship to canada" reply "I'm not in Canada, I live in Michigan". etc. then you may be liable.
The problem is not necessarily that he lives in Canada, as some people are willing to ship to Canada, it is because you don't want to ship there because you "Did it once before and it was a huge mess" so that may put it back on you, legally. Also, as $500 was only the down payment, I'm assuming a high dollar animal, and maybe legally and/or morally, you should have offered to help him find someone who would broker the export, or at least let him try to get it done.

Morally, ????? I think again it may depend on "what really happened". Not saying you did anything wrong, just that there are two sides to every story. From his end it may just be a 'lack of communication" problem. ie. "nothing was mentioned until I called saying I had the rest of the money, and gave a shipping address", and he replied "I don't ship to Canada". So unless you have "iron clad" evidence that he was purpously (fraudulently) lying to you, you may be on shaky ground legally and morally. JMHO

Originally Posted by reptilebreeder

e-mails stating..."I don't ship to canada" reply "I'm not in Canada, I live in Michigan". etc.

Or upstate NY.....as you actually stated. Doh.

He said he would need them shipped to Upstate New York. I said no problem at all. He sends me $500 as a down payment, then later informs me he's really in Canada. Now 2 problems, one I already forwarded the money from my PayPal account to another guy I owed some money to. And two, I'm not shipping to Canada. Did it once before and it was a huge mess. Domestic sales only. Understanding the situation he had put himself in, I said if I could sell the snakes soon, I would refund his money. (Although, I really have no obligation to do that since he's the one who totally screwed up).

Well, now 4 months later, the snakes in question are gone. I traded them, didn't sell them. And he's emailing me wanting me to send him a "cheque" for his $500. I told him basically that it's not gonna happen and why. I would have gladly refunded the money he pissed away a few months ago if I could have.

Ryan,

This person obviously mislead you with his location. Do you have TOS written on somewhere where you stated that the $500 were a non-refundable deposit? If not, I agree with John in that you may be liable. Did you state upfront you were willing to ship only within the US? Is it in writing somewhere? From the other poster you probably noticed thus far that the key words are “in writing”. No conversation over the phone alone will get you out of this agreement. The third question is you said that you traded the snakes. Was this before or after learning that he wanted you to ship to Canada? In MHO this makes a big difference. And if you traded them it was probably for something of similar value that can be converted into cash. Are you in a position of part of that “merchandise” and collect the $500 or any middle-ground amount to which you both agree upon? From now on I would suggest any communication with him should be made in writing.

Regards

The fact that you also said that "If you could sell the snakes soon, you would refund his money" may also come back at you. If you were willing to refund his money at some point, and then willlingly traded the snakes instead of selling.....it could be argued it's your tough luck you don't have the money.

I understand he lied to you, and though it isn't right, I'm thinking it just may be a whole lot easier to just refund his money, sadly. Maybe you need to rethink your ads, and clearly state NO SHIPPING OUT OF THE US. Not to mention making sure you have some sort of a written policy on refunding (or not refunding) deposits.

After some more thought on the issue, I believe you entered into a verbal contract with him when you said, "If I could sell the snakes soon, I would refund his money".

You traded them, but it's really the same difference.

I would just give the guy his money back, possibly minus 10%, for having to feed and take care of animal(s) that you expected him to take 4 months ago.

Who's money is it?
Give him the money back!

LOL, as Richie stated......"after some more thought on the issue".....I also had more thoughts. I think that money is rightfully his. Some issues that made me change my mind.
1. Your "If I sell them I will give a refund" as mentioned by the others.
2. The non refundable deposit issue Chris brought up, can be argued that it doesn't apply. Almost all NR deposit clauses (as related to the herp industry) state money refunded if I can't supply the animal. Technically, because you can't deliver the animal to Canada, you can't supply the animal (see also, #3)
3. If I order a stilleto knife from a catalog, and the manufacturer can't send it to me because they are illegal in CA, they can't keep my money. even if I knew I was breaking a law (the state of CA may be able to charge me with trying to break a law, but the company still can't keep my money).
4. I also think it can be broken up into two issues, ownership of the animal and method of getting the animal to the person who paid for said animal/owner (assuming he would have paid the balance). Think of the threads we have seen where someone bought an animal then when they found out the person delivers the animal through USPS, they either demanded a refund (and should recieve it) or they make other arrangments, like having it shipped on their FED EX/Delta/UPS account, or picking the animal up. He paid (by deposit, and eventually paying balance had it got that far) for the animal, delivery is now the problem. I feel, as I stated in prior post, that he should have been offered help in importing the animal, or given the chance to see if he can find someone to import it. If there would have been no help found, I think it would go back to issues 1, 2, 3.