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Old 05-10-2008, 01:10 PM   #51
Drache613
Hello

Hello All,

Still arguing about the same things as you did years ago. This is good, we need research. So, all I can say is to test. Just because I PM someone to ask if they are testing or would be interested in testing is not bad. I think new breeders need to be aware of problems that can arise.
Yes the parvo & dependo are widely found as well. Several of the tests that I have they had all 3. So they are dependent on the AV that is why. Lou Ann never discouraged testing, she is fully supportive of testing. It is a wide problem & we need to look at all of the issues.
I see how everyone is. I don't agree with everyone else on issues so I get beat up. That's alright, it doesn't matter.
I am not charging anything at all for my society. It is supposed to be trying to help get information, etc.
I will simply help people who want to be helped, which most definitely are not you people. You ridicule people who come on here with positive dragons saying their husbandry is bad, but lie when you say that they are alone in having any problems?
If you did have problems with yours, you definitely would not be admitting it to anyone. I do have a couple of saved emails from Jeff who is denying any problems as well as Anthony. I do keep documentation.
At least maybe some new breeders will look more carefully into this issue & can do some research to decide if they feel it important enough to do testing.


Tracie
 
Old 05-10-2008, 01:25 PM   #52
jenkznza
Why in the world would anyone accept advice concerning Bearded Dragons from someone who lacks expertise? When it comes to Bearded Dragons I’m going to seek the advice of a professional breeder that’s been in the business for years not someone who doesn’t even maintain the species. To me that just makes sense.

The professional breeders have dealt with this issue and found that Adenovirus is not a problem. They’ve done the footwork, they’ve talked with the researches, they’ve verified the information and misinformation that has been put out over the internet and disputed its validity. Yet people are blindly following Tracie (Drache613) and her supporters, accepting what they state as fact. That doesn’t make sense to me!

Tracie and her supporters have stated on several occasions that breeders won’t conform to their pleas for testing, because it will reflect on them monetarily. That’s simply not true! I know many topnotch breeders who feel that Adenovirus is not a concern and will not test. These people all live for what they do. They breed incredible Bearded Dragons and tend for them with great care. They would be the first group to collectively attack a perceived problem, drawing upon every resource at their disposal to rectify the situation. After all, their livelihood would be at stake not to mention the animals they maintain. Yet when the professional breeders determine that Adenovirus is not the plague it has been professed to be, they are ostracized for not conforming to the wishes of the neophytes of the reptile world. Sounds a bit backwards doesn’t it.

As far as PATS (THE POGONA ADENOVIRUS TESTING SOCIETY) is concerned, I can’t take this organization seriously.

1) I can find no filing of a nonprofit status for this organization. If this was a legitimate organization it would have filed for its 501C3 status with the Federal Government.
2) Correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I can tell Tracie is not an accredited individual. If I’m going to deal with an organization its leaders are going to be educated in their field of research. Tracie has not displayed any credentials that I’m aware of.
3) Tracie claims to be collecting test results for research purposes yet refuses to release any statistics. If her research is to benefit the Bearded Dragon Community these statistics must be released. They don’t have to contain the names of breeders, but for sake of argument they should be verified by an independent party.
4) The goal of research is to better understand/cure the disease being studied. That said this organization should have the capacity to perform physical research on Bearded Dragons. From what I have read PATS does not.
5) In post #10 of this thread Tracie admits to giving out test results to Tammy Aldrich over the phone without their possession. If nonexistent results have already been given out what’s to say more won’t be fabricated?

It is my opinion that PATS serves no viable purpose other than to fulfill its leader’s need for self gratification. It and its leader should be shunned by all those who breed/maintain Bearded Dragons.

Now I know someone is bound to ask who I think I am. I’m a breeder. I maintain a fairly large colony of Bearded Dragons with established blood lines from several other quality breeders. I work with my colony fulltime i.e. I do this for a living. No I do not test for Adenovirus in my Bearded Dragons nor have I tested for it in my child, dog, goldfish, or the neighborhood cat. Why would I waste my efforts on testing animals for a virus that is common to virtually every species on the planet. It makes absolutely no sense!
 
Old 05-10-2008, 02:55 PM   #53
JeffnDes
Tracie,
The problems I had are already in this thread. I never denied having them. You know what caused them and it was no fault of mine. You keep throwing digs at me as if I am trying to hide something or not telling the whole truth....... I to have the emails I sent to you as well as the ones you sent me :-) By all means post them up! I have nothing to hide........ If you have anything on me besides the bacterial issues from horn worms then by all means, Post it! There is nothing in those emails that is not in this thread.
I'm calling you out Tracie! If you have something on me then the floor is all yours. If not then stop throwing your little digs in to give the perception that you do.
 
Old 05-10-2008, 03:10 PM   #54
draggintails
"Lou Ann never discouraged testing, she is fully supportive of testing." Tracie

"I am discouraging people from testing for adenovirus because it is so endemic" Lou Anne Miller 5-8-08


Yes the parvo & dependo are widely found as well. Tracie


no, they are not widely found, they were found on only a "few" submission samples done at IL. I did not see these viruses on any of my samples and the other test results that were shared with me did not have them on there either.
 
Old 05-10-2008, 03:47 PM   #55
JeffnDes
Quote:
Originally Posted by draggintails
"Lou Ann never discouraged testing, she is fully supportive of testing." Tracie

"I am discouraging people from testing for adenovirus because it is so endemic" Lou Anne Miller 5-8-08

Tammy, In your experience, what exactly is Lou Anne saying here? Can you please elaborate for the people that may not understand this statement. The way I read that is that because it is so endemic that Lou Anne is discouraging people from testing?


Quote:
Originally Posted by draggintails
Yes the parvo & dependo are widely found as well. Tracie


no, they are not widely found, they were found on only a "few" submission samples done at IL. I did not see these viruses on any of my samples and the other test results that were shared with me did not have them on there either.
I don't know, it looks like someone is an alarmist. Will parvo & dependo be replacing AV soon as the new hot topic?
 
Old 05-10-2008, 06:18 PM   #56
draggintails
Jeff,

she is not encouraging people to test for av because it is in most of the population

If you are married just have your wife read it to you and explain it.
 
Old 05-10-2008, 06:37 PM   #57
Bearded Wizard
Proof?

Anthony
 
Old 05-10-2008, 06:39 PM   #58
Bearded Wizard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drache613
If you did have problems with yours, you definitely would not be admitting it to anyone. I do have a couple of saved emails from Jeff who is denying any problems as well as Anthony. I do keep documentation.
At least maybe some new breeders will look more carefully into this issue & can do some research to decide if they feel it important enough to do testing.


Tracie
Again proof? Because I know I'm clean, and theres no information you can bring forward that will prove otherwise!

Anthony
 
Old 05-10-2008, 06:51 PM   #59
Bearded Wizard
Quote:
Originally Posted by draggintails
"I am discouraging people from testing for adenovirus because it is so endemic" Lou Anne Miller 5-8-08
Wow really, thanks for pointing that out Tammy, I'm sure plenty of the new comers to the bearded dragon hobby would love to hear that from a qualitied University researcher!

And the dictionary definition for those of you that might not understand it is:

Quote:
adjective Also, en·dem·i·cal.
1. natural to or characteristic of a specific people or place; native; indigenous: endemic folkways; countries where high unemployment is endemic.
2. belonging exclusively or confined to a particular place: a fever endemic to the tropics.
–noun
3. an endemic disease.
Basically not a problem...

Anthony
 
Old 05-10-2008, 07:12 PM   #60
pscaulkins
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffnDes
Tracie,
The problems I had are already in this thread. I never denied having them. You know what caused them and it was no fault of mine. You keep throwing digs at me as if I am trying to hide something or not telling the whole truth....... I to have the emails I sent to you as well as the ones you sent me :-) By all means post them up! I have nothing to hide........ If you have anything on me besides the bacterial issues from horn worms then by all means, Post it! There is nothing in those emails that is not in this thread.
I'm calling you out Tracie! If you have something on me then the floor is all yours. If not then stop throwing your little digs in to give the perception that you do.
Jeff, could you answer a few questions not related to adeno?

You had breeders die from bad bacteria that you say came from hornworms. Being a breeder, don't you think sharing what you did to save them might help someone else. What meds that apparently didn't work? How you found out the kind of bacteria that killed them? How you found out it was the hornworms that contaminated them and not something in your husbandry? Necropsy or lab work? Since everyone thinks that breeders has the best knowledge, would you mind sharing it? I truly am interested in how, what meds didn't work? What symptoms you seen? All this would and could help someone else. This is why I emailed you. I am honestly asking you this not to attack you or make you prove anything. I have experience with bacteria and if I can learn more I will. I am also truly sorry you lost your bearded dragons and I know I said this in the email.

Another poster asked about meds that could help an adeno dragon and I gave her what I tried and didn't work. I am not a breeder but I do have experience in some things beardie related that breeders don't have a clue in.

Instead of attacking and discrediting people, why not see what they have to say and weigh it with what you know.
 

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