Bad Guy Justin Clark - Dozens of illegal pythons seized from (Mission) BC Home - Page 2 - FaunaClassifieds
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Old 08-26-2013, 02:01 AM   #11
K9dr
In what seems to be a game of wack a mole, I will once again repeat the following. While I will not discuss specific cases I will respond to Dewdney Animal Hospital CAS rescue permit. At the present time Dewdney Animal Hospital has the only permit to hold CAS rescue animals in BC. Our facility consists of 1 boaphile cage with 3 dividers (4 cages), 2 24x 12 cages, 2 36x 18 cages. Three home made PVC 48x24 cages and 1 6'x2' cage. Currently we are housing a nile monitor and a 6 ft burmese python. 3 other cages contain either clinic animals or non-CAS rescues. We are very limited in space, and while we have taken in as many as 20 small retics, we currently do not have access to the extra facility. Therefore we are unable to take in large numbers of animals. In general CAS animals live between 3-6 months at Dewdney prior to getting the correct permits to transfer to other provinces/countries. We receive no funding for these activities. We have no say over what SPCA or BCConservation services do, but we do reserve the right to refuse animals if we do not feel that we can adequatly take care of them. We have already expended hundreds, if not thousands of dollars to house, feed, ship and arrange the correct permits for animals in our care. In cases of seizures of large numbers of animals we are simply not equipped to handle the 3-6 months of care required before these animals could be transferred out of province. Sincerely Dr. Adrian Walton Dewdney Animal Hospital
 
Old 08-27-2013, 08:34 AM   #12
bmm
I am so sick of this idea that keeping exotic animals is a right not a privilege. These are LIVING creatures. If you are living paycheck to paycheck, if you are getting evicted, I am sorry but you should NOT own a multitude of exotic animals and you certainly should not be responsible for over 50 of their lives when they are giants. Wtf? It's like I'm living on Mars.

I am tired of these low lifes thinking it's o.k. to cram 50+ large animals into their rental home and call themselves breeders. That's not a professional breeder no matter how many times you call it a "facility" or refer to yourself as "we"..... You are a low life animal hoarding backyard breeder. Just because you "want them" doesn't mean you should have 100 of them. A little restraint, common sense and responsibility would have made this situation a LOT LESS tragic. Like you know, knowing they are illegal and you are not able to OWN a home so possibly owning only ONE or NONE? Keeping something smaller? You cannot argue to me that owning even more then 1 Reticulated Python is a good idea until you OWN a house to provide a long term stable environment for them unless you have a large unrestricted cash flow to maintain your rental long term. It's not about you. It's about the long term health, stability and safety of the animal and we aren't talking about a corn snake. So forgive me if I think people who want 15+ foot snakes should be a little more ahead in life and past the point of midnight evictions and living paycheck to paycheck. It's frustrating. I'd love a few monitors, but my husband and I are currently renting and it's not fair to start purchasing giant meat eating creatures that require heat, light and space until I can provide those things guaranteed long term in a house I OWN that no one can evict me from.

If you suggest that online or on forums, you are ripped apart for saying "poor people shouldn't own pets" Well these aren't pets. They are exotic animals. Instead of encouraging underage people, financially strapped people and otherwise incapable people of owning these animals, we need to start frowning on this behavior, respecting the professional breeders more that do it RIGHT, and start getting these people OUT of our hobby.

Good riddance to bad rubbish. It's just horrible sad that the snakes are the lives that paid for this. And it will continue. Heck, even just after this happened and he posted about his side of the story, one of the largest breeders offered the dude MORE retics one day should he want to get back into it! This is not something that will stop anytime soon if this stuff is o.k.....
 
Old 08-27-2013, 11:59 AM   #13
Spyke
https://www.facebook.com/jay.ce.5458?fref=ts

check out his facebook page where kevin mccurley asks for the info of the vet and mr.clark provides it!

so does mr.mccurley endorse this kind of behavior?
 
Old 08-27-2013, 04:53 PM   #14
AaronSerio
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmm View Post
I am so sick of this idea that keeping exotic animals is a right not a privilege. These are LIVING creatures. If you are living paycheck to paycheck, if you are getting evicted, I am sorry but you should NOT own a multitude of exotic animals and you certainly should not be responsible for over 50 of their lives when they are giants. Wtf? It's like I'm living on Mars.

I am tired of these low lifes thinking it's o.k. to cram 50+ large animals into their rental home and call themselves breeders. That's not a professional breeder no matter how many times you call it a "facility" or refer to yourself as "we"..... You are a low life animal hoarding backyard breeder. Just because you "want them" doesn't mean you should have 100 of them. A little restraint, common sense and responsibility would have made this situation a LOT LESS tragic. Like you know, knowing they are illegal and you are not able to OWN a home so possibly owning only ONE or NONE? Keeping something smaller? You cannot argue to me that owning even more then 1 Reticulated Python is a good idea until you OWN a house to provide a long term stable environment for them unless you have a large unrestricted cash flow to maintain your rental long term. It's not about you. It's about the long term health, stability and safety of the animal and we aren't talking about a corn snake. So forgive me if I think people who want 15+ foot snakes should be a little more ahead in life and past the point of midnight evictions and living paycheck to paycheck. It's frustrating. I'd love a few monitors, but my husband and I are currently renting and it's not fair to start purchasing giant meat eating creatures that require heat, light and space until I can provide those things guaranteed long term in a house I OWN that no one can evict me from.

If you suggest that online or on forums, you are ripped apart for saying "poor people shouldn't own pets" Well these aren't pets. They are exotic animals. Instead of encouraging underage people, financially strapped people and otherwise incapable people of owning these animals, we need to start frowning on this behavior, respecting the professional breeders more that do it RIGHT, and start getting these people OUT of our hobby.

Good riddance to bad rubbish. It's just horrible sad that the snakes are the lives that paid for this. And it will continue. Heck, even just after this happened and he posted about his side of the story, one of the largest breeders offered the dude MORE retics one day should he want to get back into it! This is not something that will stop anytime soon if this stuff is o.k.....
You make a lot of valid points Marisa.

I like how you touched upon a point I was trying to make in another thread on RC. Even if these animals were taken care of properly does it still make Jay a responsible keeper if he's doing it illegally? I believe not. No matter if anyone agrees or disagrees with the law on silly it may or may not be, you're still breaking it and are subject to the punishment. Unfortunately, a lot of animals paid the price for Jay's selfish ego.
 
Old 08-27-2013, 06:06 PM   #15
hhmoore
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyke View Post
https://www.facebook.com/jay.ce.5458?fref=ts

check out his facebook page where kevin mccurley asks for the info of the vet and mr.clark provides it!

so does mr.mccurley endorse this kind of behavior?
Is that a serious question?
 
Old 08-27-2013, 06:17 PM   #16
Spyke
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhmoore View Post
Is that a serious question?
i guess that answers my serious question
 
Old 08-27-2013, 08:04 PM   #17
hhmoore
I asked because, in the link you provided, Kevin said how pi$$ed off he was about it...so I didn't understand how you could turn that into him endorsing it.
 
Old 08-27-2013, 08:31 PM   #18
Spyke
oh i see, well im sure he is pissed off because one of his golden child retics was euthanized, but instead of being pissed at jay he is pissed at the vet.

only one person to be pissed off here and that is why i asked if he endorses behavior like jay clarks, which would be breaking the law to keep prohibited animals.
 
Old 08-28-2013, 12:50 AM   #19
SquamishSerpents
This is going to turn into a novel as opposed to a short story, so bear with me.

I am going to give you some inside information from the actual province of BC, as there seems to be a huge amount of stuff being posted regarding this delicate situation.

I live about 2 hours away from Mr. Clark, and where the Retics (and supposedly another species) were euthanized.

It makes me angry that these pythons are dead. Angry, hurt, and just sick over it. But what many are not realizing is that they are dead because Mr. Clark kept them illegally, did not pay his rent, and they were found. Regardless of what he is plastering all over the internet to garner sympathy from the herp community, what he did was illegal and should not be condoned by anybody.

Mr. Clark is not a respected person at all in the reptile community. He had been banned previously from the local reptile club (though I am not sure why, as I was not on the Board of Directors at this time), and there are various posts on the BOI that illustrate his character. (No, I do not expect that you will have the time to read through all of his BS on there...but just thought I should add the links anyways)

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ighlight=Clark

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ighlight=Clark

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ighlight=Clark

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ighlight=Clark

Moving on, according to the British Columbia Wildlife Act, there are certain species of snakes that MAY require a permit. IF they reach 3 meters (approx 9-10ft) in length, you must apply for a permit. Though Retics are not one of these species.

Reticulated pythons and all subspecies including Dwarf and Super Dwarf, are PROHIBITED without possessing a Controlled Alien Species Permit for each and every snake (unless you are a rescue, though I am not certain on the specifics of CAS Rescue Permits.) I believe there are only 61 CAS permits issued in BC. In any case, it is also downright illegal to breed these snakes, even if you DO posses a permit. In fact, a permit is required to move the snake from one facility to another.

You can view these links for important legal information:
CAS - General Questions - http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife...s/general.html

List of CAS Animals (PDF) - http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife...common-all.pdf

Wildlife Act - Controlled Alien Species Regulation - http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bcl...eeside/94_2009

Mr. Clark claims to have had permits for "some" of the snakes, though he has failed to produce them for anybody on the internet. A permit must be available for viewing at the facility where the animals are kept, AT ALL TIMES. Surely if he did posess permits it would be quite simple for him to post photos. Even then. He still bred them. He still broke the law. What I am getting from all of Mr. Clarks posts is that because he believes the law is stupid and should not exist, he is exempt from it. This is not how it works.

The fact that Mr. Clark feels he is above the law in BC is quite insulting, and a huge slap in the slap in the face to the entire reptile community.

Especially since this happened right after the tragedy in New Brunswick, it has been completely awful. The momentum against our hobby is growing. The BC Reptile Club has been working incredibly hard for the last couple of years to put our hobby in a positive light, educate everybody that we can, and show that reptiles are just as valid a pet as a dog, cat, or hamster.

Now one person just goes and ruins it because he feels he is above the law. People are now afraid that there are going to be protests at our upcoming Expos. And now due to Mr. Clark's selfish actions there is talk of adding more bylaws/prohibited species/outright bans on ALL exotics.

Mr. Clark put this entire community in a blinding spotlight, and now that he is going around trying to garner sympathy just makes me sick.

Please don't get me wrong though, as I have already been called an "Animal Killer" by Mr. Clark...I DO NOT AGREE that this should have happened. This legislation was created without an action plan for what happens in these situations. The Government of BC is no better than any Government. They did not think before acting and enacting. There needs to be a plan for what happens when these illegal species are discovered. Everybody knows, there are still many of these snakes out there, being kept illegally, and with time, and the momentum that these stories have in the local media, they WILL be discovered. In fact in a local news article a Conservation Officer told the public that "anyone aware of the presence of suspicious snakes is urged to report them to conservation officers immediately."

Now all it takes is a pissed off neighbor to tattle on somebody for having a corn snake. Even if the BC SPCA is called and concludes that the species is legal, I can guarantee it WILL make the news now. These stories are an absolute field day for media.

So with that, I fear more and more snakes are going to be euthanized in the future.

However, David Chan of Exotic Serpents has pressed that there needs to be an investigation into the process of how situations such as these are handled. Right now, the process for how the authorities go about dealing with this situation is BROKEN.

You may have to Register to see the thread, but updates on the investigation will be posted here:

http://bcreptileclub.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2903. The investigation was supposed to conclude yesterday, and David should receive the final report within 2 months.

David Chan's email is keepers@exoticserpents.com if you would like to talk to him in more detail. I do not have his phone number at this time, but I could find it for you if need be.

Dr. Adrian Walton, who I have dealt with on a couple of occasions has been the voice of reason many times. He has been on the news numerous times educating the public on the FACTS about these animals. He has rehomed many CAS species over the years and he works absolutely tirelessly at his private practice to help animals. The last Burmese Python that he rehomed took 6+ months for the new owner to obtain their permit. I can get you Dr. Waltons contact information as well, if need be, though since this is a legal matter right now, he is not able to comment much, other than to confirm that everything the Conservation Officers had said on the seized pythons is accurate.

Dr. Walton has made a statement, also on the BCRC forum:
"As a reptile keeper, a veterinarian, and well quite simply a human being, I too am saddened by the events that have plagued our hobby in the last few weeks. As a member of multiple forums, I am aware to the controversy of the events in BC. As I have stated before, I cannot discuss individual cases. I can confirm statements made by BC Conservation that these animals were all discovered due to issues non-related to what happened in New Brunswick. The events in Mission were due to an eviction (a legal eviction), and that the snakes were discovered by Bailiffs (this is public knowledge). The events in Langley [http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...l-snakes.html] were due to a separate BCSPCA investigation that had nothing to do with snakes. As has been stated by BC Conservation these animals were REALLY not secured properly. REPEAT this was not a vendetta against reptiles, this was just bad luck.

On the rescue front, Dewdney Animal hospital has rehomed over 25 snakes and several lizards. Many of you have seen our holding facilities, they include 1 boaphile cage with 4 compartments (Thanks to Exotic Serpents), we have have 1 large cage 6x2 for snakes up to 3 m and we have two 3x2 cages for medium snakes and lizards. Due to a very patient wife, we were able to use a locked room in my house to store a seizure of 20 retics, however after the events of New Brunswick, it was a mutual decision between my wife and I to not have any snake larger then 2 m at home as I only have 1 cage that is size appropriate (for under 2 m) and with an inquisitive 4 year old.
In general, reptile seizures result in a fair amount of red tape. Example is a gopher snake that was seized in January and I was told I would only be holding until May, then June, then July, now I have no idea when this animal can and will be relocated. Any future seizures may be subject to legal challenge and that anyone considering CAS rescue should be aware that they may be required to hold these animals for 2-3 months at a minimum, and far far longer should there be legal challenges. This whole idea that the animals could be relocated in a couple of days is not how things work.

As a veterinarian involved in Animal Welfare, I have seen what happens when people have more animals then they can take care of. It starts off with good intentions, a belief that there is no one else who can help these animals, they start making excuses for lapses in care (dirty cages, empty water dishes) and can quickly escalate to an animal abuse situation. For this reason Dewdney Animal Hospital when it set up its guidelines for CAS rescue explicited stated that animals that were kept in proper houses could stay at the rescue until a) 1 year, or b) another animal came in that required that cage. We also made the decision that in large animal seizures, we would only take in those animals that we could safely house and realistically could take care of.
What I can state is that Dewdney Animal Hospital did not have the space, the equipment, or the time to handle a large reptile seizure. We also have a policy not to accept hot snakes in our facility (I have and do treat them, but offsite).

Currently the legal frame work of the Controlled Alien Species Act allows for these animals to only go to approved CAZA facilities (aka the Vancouver Zoo and the Vancouver Aquarium) or an approved CAS rescue facility (aka Dewdney Animal Hospital). We are having conversations with Bry Loyst at Indian River Reptile Zoo regarding their ability to assist us in the future, as well as conversations with local facilities with large snake rooms with which we may be able to set up a seperate CAS permit, or use their facilities as a satellite under Dewdney Animal Hospitals permit.

I would like to Thank all of you that have been on various forums defending my actions to the wider reptile community. With many of these types of events there is a tendency to not look at the actually circumstances on the ground, but just have a knee jerk reaction to the events.
Dr. Adrian Walton DVM"

And Pete Kirkwood of North Island Reptile Rescue also has something to say on the situation:

"One of the biggest questions we faced at NIRRS was the co-operation of the MOE to re-home CAS animals and have access to shipping permits in order to send CAS reptiles out of province and into suitable homes. The MOE at the time had no answers one way or the other. Therefore, we chose not to apply for the permit as it appeared that we would only be temporary housing and forced to have the animals euthanized, at our expense. The MOE had encouraged us to apply, but without an agreed option on rehoming, it seemed futile.
Operating a reptile rescue is not as easy as some of you may think. The financial burden can be overwhelming at times. All it takes is one vet bill, and you find yourself struggling to make ends meet. We work hard to raise donations, and donations don't just come rolling in. The cost of housing 46 snakes in this case can break the bank in a very short period of time.

I fully agree with David Chan that there was a rush to judgement to destroy all 46 snakes without consulting members of an established reptile community in the BCRC. I'm more than sure that there are a number of well known and established breeders who have the connections to rehome the animals if given just a bit of time. I'm quite sure many of those snakes were under 3 meters.
This only re-enforces what we felt from the beginning, that the MOE's agenda really doesn't have a lot to do with the re-homing of these animals.

...

The initial blame does land squarely on the shoulders of Mr. Clark, but the events following have us shaking our heads at such a terrible waste.

There is something I would like everyone to consider, as the BCRC Fall Show & Sale is just around the corner. As you walk by the Richmond Reptile Rescue's table, dig into your pocket and give a donation. Show your local reptile rescue that you care about what they do and offer to help by way of a donation. A loonie feeds one corn snake for 10 days."

Anyways. Thank you for reading, if you made it this far!

Katia Grondin
Squamish Serpents
 
Old 08-28-2013, 10:11 AM   #20
AaronSerio
Katia, that was a really good post. Thanks for the information from BC.

The one point I dislike about the 3 meter rule is apparently you can own any species up until the individual snake hits the banned size. I hope they close that loophole so any species getting that size can't be owned at all. I'm sure we'd see a lot less animals being starved so people can keep them.

Anyway, here's Jay's last post on the RC boards. I wanted to respond to it but that thread is closed and so I brought it here.



To what Jay said. Do you really believe that just because other people are currently getting away with doing this illegal it somehow makes you 1. a responsible keeper 2. that they may be caught as well? 3. It's akin to saying if you killed someone it isn't your fault and the cops are out to get you because other people have broken the same law as you.

You look ridiculous.
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