Iraqi Prisoner abuse

OK, I agree that abuse is intolerable, but it appears that there is WAY more coverage on this than there was on the four contractors burned bodies that were dragged through the street, tied to a bridge, and mutilated.

Hmmmmm.........seems like a good poll question to me.

I agree that this is a horrible thing these idiotic soldiers have done. It's immoral, if they did it for their own amusement, and it's completely incompetant to have taken pictures, if they were working under the orders of the CIA, as some have suggested.

I also agree that the media is going to make more of it than is neccessary, givent he political climate. There are degrees of punishment/torture, and in our society, this seems relatively mild by comparison to the burning body parts of our countrymen seen not too long ago.

However, when taking this poll, it is not really relevant to take it from a Western point of view, but rather from a Eastern one. To those Iraqis, they may very well HAD rather been killed a horrible death than to have had done to them as was done. That is the real test, in my opinion. But that is exactly WHY this type of "torture" works over there as opposed to threats of death.

In certain interrogation techniques, sexual humiliation is a tool used to beat a suspect down. Once they have been destroyed in their own eyes, they are much more likely to talk about things they otherwise would have kept secret. Men are forcibly held down and disrobed against their will, whereas women are put under a bright light and commanded to disrobe with men staring at them, but not touching them. Both techniques are effective, but only the best results are seen for the genders upon which they are used in this specific combinations. A man told to take his clothes off in front of other men may be nervous, but he is not humiliated. Hold him down and remove his ability to cover himself, and he is, though. A woman who is overpowered by several men and has her clothes ripped off, will obviously be traumatized, but she can separate herself from the event much easier than a man can. However, if SHE is the complicitous one in taking off her own clothes while men watch HER do so, that humiliates a woman in a way that men cannot fathom.

All I am saying is that there are techniques that seem rather innocuous to us, because of our particular culural biases. However, take those same techniques into other parts of the world, and the effects are monumental.

I think that what is considered humiliating is much more pervasive and accepted by the community at large over there than it is here. The social mores are much more established and set in the culture than anything here. They have thousands of years of history while we have, at best, a few hundred. The society as a whole is much more...... I guess homozygous, having only one accepted way of doing things right. There is tradition there, the middle east, that has nothing it can be compared to here.

Here you can go to any major city in the U.S. and pay some woman to strip you down and put a collar and leash on you. That will perhaps lead to your drinking buddies giving you a hard time buy not a societal wide snickering. Well, perhaps some snickering but, most men who would go in for such treatment would not be concerned with some snickering. Over there it would pretty much be over for that guy. His honor would be gone, as would his manhood and masculinity.

Male/female, gender role models in general and in specific, are much more set in concrete by society at large over there than they are here.

If your aim is to break someone down, imasculation is very effective. If he's the enemy, is it wrong? Especially if his brothers and sons and family are the ones burning and dragging the bodies of Americans through the streets.

No, I'm not defending anyones actions in this mess but, I can see, I think, why they did what they did. Knowing that this could happen to you if you were captured and did not co-operate, would you be more or less likely to give up information immediately upon capture?

The whole thing pretty much sucks.

Wes Pollock

We might be seeing both sides of the same coin here...Maybe the Iraqi's involved with dragging the corpses thru the streets knew that Americans would be utterly appalled by the desicration of the corpses, much as Americans knew that any Iraqi seeing pictures of emasculated prisoners would think twice about putting themselves in a position to become a prisoner...both pretty strong signals to your enemy...yup, war is hell

and to be honest, i am really hoping that this line of reasoning bears out, because i am less likely to believe that Abu, Ali and Muhammed, while drinking fermented goats milk and sucking on a hash pipe decide "Ok, let us to be driving around with these dead people tied to the bumper" ...than I am to believe PFC 's Pete, Tom, and Michelle, while knocking back a coupla "illicit rations", one turns to the other and says "Shucks, let's just strip 'em and throw 'em in a fag pile"

The stupid woman who is in a good half the photo's smiling~ giving the thumbs up~

Thats is the most de-masculating thing that could have been done to them~ having a woman be able to force them to do these things so against the mandates of their religion and their culture.

And then the Americans are outraged (As we should be) but we show this by REPEATEDLY showing the photo's of this woman tormenting these men on national TV.

That is insult to injury

It get's a hell of a lot worse!

Read through the following
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Lawmakers Say New Abuse Photos Even Worse


May 12, 2004 05:37 PM EDT


WASHINGTON - The abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. troops went beyond the photos seen by most Americans, shaken lawmakers said Wednesday after viewing fresh pictures and video that they said depicted forced sex, brutality and dogs snarling at cowed prisoners.

Some members of Congress said they feared that making the images public would inflame international outrage and endanger Americans still in Iraq. The private screening of more than 1,600 photos in a top-secret room of the U.S. Capitol came one day after Islamic militants announced they had beheaded an American in Iraq to avenge abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison.

"I don't know how the hell these people got into our army," said Colorado Republican Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell after viewing what he called a fraction of the images.

"I saw cruel, sadistic torture," said Rep. Jane Harman, D-Calif., who said some of the images were of male prisoners masturbating. She said she saw a man hitting himself against a wall as though to knock himself unconscious.

Others said they saw images of corpses, military dogs snarling at cowering prisoners, women commanded to expose their breasts and sex acts, including forced homosexual sex.

"There were people who were forced to have sex with each other," said Rep. Gary Ackerman, D-N.Y.

Rep. Trent Franks, R-Ariz., said, "There were some pictures where it looked like a prisoner was sodomizing himself" with an object. He said blood was visible in the photograph.

Not everyone reacted the same way to the additional photos.

House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, said he thought "some people are overreacting."

"The people who are against the war are using this to their political ends," he said.

The private screening marked the latest turn in a scandal that has prompted President Bush to apologize to the victims and Democrats to demand the dismissal of Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld.

Many of the photos appeared to include the same small group of soldiers who were in pictures that had already been made public. And pictures of abuse were mixed in with travelogue-type photos.

Some questionable photos appeared to have nothing to do with prisoners, including several that lawmakers believed were of sex between male and female U.S. troops.

The pictures on three discs were shown to lawmakers in the form of a slide show. Many said the images were difficult to decipher.

Shortly before the viewing began, Rumsfeld defended military interrogation techniques in Iraq, rejecting contentions that they violate international rules and may endanger Americans taken prisoner.

Rumsfeld told a Senate committee that Pentagon lawyers had approved methods such as sleep deprivation and dietary changes as well as rules permitting prisoners to be made to assume stressful positions.

Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, also noted that the rules require prisoners to be treated humanely at all times.

Sen. Richard Durbin, D-Ill. said some of the approved techniques "go far beyond the Geneva Convention," a reference to international rules governing the treatment of prisoners of war.

The Defense Department is conducting multiple investigations into prisoner abuse.

Lawmakers were given three hours to see the photos and videos in top-secret rooms at the Capitol. The photos remained in the custody of the Pentagon as the administration tried to decide whether to release them to the public.

In the past two weeks a handful of photos have been made public along with an Army report that found numerous "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses" at the U.S.-run Abu Ghraib prison complex near Baghdad.

In Wednesday's viewing, briefers from the Pentagon's Criminal Investigation Division conducted the sessions sought by the Senate Armed Services Committee, which has had two hearings into the abuses that have caused an international firestorm.

Committee Chairman John Warner urged before the photos were shown Wednesday that lawmakers use caution in describing them publicly.

"I think we've got to be extremely cautious ... not incite in any way further anger against our forces or others working in the cause of freedom," the Virginia Republican said on the Senate floor.

He said he didn't think they should be released to the public until trials of the troops begin to protect the legal process and avoid "inspiring the enemy to inflict further damage."

Myers said the military has taken steps to correct the problems, including replacing the military police unit that took some of the photos.

"This was a unit that had issues with just adhering to the Army's standards," Myers said. "They didn't have standardized uniforms. They were allowed to carry guns in their civilian clothes when they were off duty. They had things written on their cap. They didn't particularly want to salute."

Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who conducted the Army's first investigation into the abuse, told Congress on Tuesday that he believed the pictures were taken by military personnel using their personal digital cameras.

But Warner has said he believes some were staged as part of the interrogation process.
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POW guards the world over have a LONG history of being sick, sadictic lowlifes. Those guilty should be on trial for the abuse.

No wonder we are hated the world over. This just adds fuel to the fire for those who hate us, it's wonderfull news for the Bin Laden's of this world. Gives them the fuel they want for a united Terror war against the US and US interests world wide.

Rumsfeld defended military interrogation techniques in Iraq, rejecting contentions that they violate international rules and may endanger Americans taken prisoner.

If I were a family member of someone taken prisoner, I'd have slightly hard time believing that!

Thanks a lot to those certain stupid camp guards who think they are cool!

I'm not defending the actions of the U.S. soldiers, yet I believe that there is more at play than what is being considered.

It's easy to sit in our living rooms after spending a day going to work, or out to supper, or relaxing at home and pass judgment on what's being portrayed in the media.

These soldiers have been exposed for an unknown period of time to heinous behaviors. They have seen their peers die. They have been attacked by the very people they were sent to protect. They've been separated from their families, their friends, their culture, their lives.

I can imagine that witnessing horrific torture of humans and desecration of American corpses would alter one's thought process and reasoning.

Look at what happens to innocent people that are put in prison. Even though they were not criminals to begin with, they adopt that behavior while they're incarcerated.

War is much different than prison. It's much, much worse.

Yes, it was wrong, but let's consider the circumstances that lead to those decisions.

I think we can all agree if it were not for our Far Left friends such as CNN aka
communist news network, this innocent american would not have been beheaded.
Although what the few soldiers did, is not good. How does it compare to what those wackos have done to our Soldiers and innocent Americans that are not even in the military.

They seem to be on the side of the terrorists and not on the side of the ones fighting the terrorists.

Actions speak louder than words !!

So what if they were degraded and abused. Just take a look at what they are doing to the people they kidnap. I think beheading is a little more extreme than the abuse inflicted upon the Iraq prisioners.